All jive.
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What the Great Tribulation of the Second Coming Will Be Like
- Thread starter piziqof
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All jive.
The "great tribulation" of the second coming of the Messiah is not long past, but the tribulation of the destruction of Jerusalem is indeed long past, for those are two distinct tribulations, for after the Messiah was killed, then came the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, which was a tribulation of its own, where was carried out by the Romans, in fulfillment of prophecy.
So do you owe debts on any vehicles or have a mortgage on a house? and do you use any credit cards?
BTW, in that passage God was talking to Jews in the land of Israel, and actually, they were allowed to charge interest to Gentiles just not Jews. Israel does not exist under that Theocratical system that it did when God gave those laws, and it has nothing to do with the modern banking system or makr of the beast. Go and read the passage and see that that law about usury was given for Jews not to charge interest to other Jews. Has nothing to do with our majority Gentile world's banking system. If you actually knew God's Torah in its context then you wouldn't spout such nonsensical unbiblical doctrines such as the banking system being the mark of the beast.
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Nope. I was once participant in the financial system, until I decided to move to another country that is easier to live using cash, and with that decision I also turned in my car, walked away from my debts, and withdrew my money from the banking system. It wasn't easy, it happened in phases.
Next, the Torah of God is for EVERYONE, not just Israel. "You shall not murder" is not just for Israel, it is for EVERYONE in the world. "A man shall not dress as a woman" is not just for Israel, it is for EVERYONE in the world. "You shall not charge your brother interest" is not just for Israel, it is for EVERYONE in the world. The Torah was given THROUGH Israel to be presented unto the world. Also, the banking system makes no distinction between Israelite or Gentile, it is therefore an abomination because it is contrary to Torah, and anyone who willingly gives it money to be able to buy and sell through it is just as guilty as those who run that system. The Torah permitted Israel to lend to the nations at interest because God intended Israel to rule over the nations, and also even to plunder them, but that permissibility of interest is not practiced at all by the banking system, lending to everyone at interest.
There are 613 mitzvouth in the Torah - 100 plus CANNOT be kept because there is no temple in Jerusalem and there is no identifiable levitical priesthood to maintain the temple.
Break one, break them all...
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Nope, certain parts of the Torah were definitely for Israel and not for the Gentiles, For example the Priesthood and Sacrificial system of the OT was done away with after Christ died on the cross, was buried and rose again. The Sabbath day and holy feasts and day were done away with two, see the book of Colossians.
You are wrong that every part of the Torah was to apply to everyone, the Torah was an agreement between God and the Children of Israel, that covenant was not a covenant that God made with the whole world. The Gentile world never agreed to that Covenant. the Children if Israel could not even keep that covenant, which is why God gave a new covenant. You need to read the book of Hebrews because it spells all of this out, as well as Galatians.
While some of the commands in the Torah apply universally, such as thou shalt not kill, or thou shalt not commit adultery. It is biblically dishonest and you are taking things out of context to try and say that every aspect of the Torah applies to EVERYONE in the world. The fact of the matter is there were certain rules and regulations that did in fact apply to the Israelite people and to them alone, and in fact many of the rules of the Torah cannot even be kept today, for example, the cities of refuge and the laws pertaining to manslaughter, cannot even be kept today because there are no cities of refugee, all of the sacrifices pertaining to the temple cannot be kept because there is no temple. So if you want to disagree about which laws still pertain today then fine, but it is foolish for you to claim that every part of the Torah is to apply to all people at all times.
There is no "613" commands of the Torah. That is a rabbinical myth. There could be more, or there could be less commands. When Yeshuah shed his blood, he STOPPED sacrifices and offerings, by becoming a sacrifice and offering HIMSELF, and in this way, he became high priest, in a new covenant, and CHANGED Torah, where our fulfillment of Torah in the new covenant is different than the fulfillment of Torah in the old covenant, which is through the airflow of God, through the blood of the Messiah, which perfects, and causes us to obey Torah, perfectly, if indeed you truly receive the airflow of God.
You just barely beat me to this point. Thank you for affirming my point though that not all of the Torah cannot even possibly kept today, This proves the point that God never intended for every part of the Torah to be kept by all people throughout all time.
You misidentify a CHANGE in Torah as an ABOLISHMENT of Torah. The Torah was never abolished, it was changed. What was changed? Our observance of Shabbat, New Moons, feasts, eating, drinking. Why? Because they were only foreshadows of the Messiah. All other commands are still binding, which includes "you shall not lend to your brother at interest". Stop your lawlessness.
Who was the Torah a covenant between?
"What does it mean that Jesus fulfilled the Law? It means that every law pointed to him, and he completed everything they pointed to. Thinking of Jesus as the fulfillment of the Law helps us see why we keep some of the OT commands and “ignore” others...
For OT Israel, all three types of laws blended together. Breaking a civil or a ceremonial law was a moral problem; conversely, breaking a moral law had a civil (and often ceremonial) consequence. But they only went hand-in-hand because Israel was in a unique place historically, as both a nation and a worshiping community. “Separation of church and state” wasn’t one of their core tenets. That’s not the case for the Church today, so the way we view the Law would have to look different....
The Civil Laws, for instance, were set up so the nation of Israel could thrive. Jesus actually emerged from this nation, but he started a new Israel—a spiritual Israel, the Church. We’re no longer bound by the civil codes of Leviticus because God doesn’t have a nation-state on earth anymore. Of course, we may wisely look at some of the principles in Israel’s civil laws as we think of our own societal politics (principles about public health, caring for the poor, etc.), but the specific rules were all fulfilled in Jesus."
Why Don't We Follow All of the Old Testament Laws? – Summit Life with J.D. Greear
For OT Israel, all three types of laws blended together. Breaking a civil or a ceremonial law was a moral problem; conversely, breaking a moral law had a civil (and often ceremonial) consequence. But they only went hand-in-hand because Israel was in a unique place historically, as both a nation and a worshiping community. “Separation of church and state” wasn’t one of their core tenets. That’s not the case for the Church today, so the way we view the Law would have to look different....
The Civil Laws, for instance, were set up so the nation of Israel could thrive. Jesus actually emerged from this nation, but he started a new Israel—a spiritual Israel, the Church. We’re no longer bound by the civil codes of Leviticus because God doesn’t have a nation-state on earth anymore. Of course, we may wisely look at some of the principles in Israel’s civil laws as we think of our own societal politics (principles about public health, caring for the poor, etc.), but the specific rules were all fulfilled in Jesus."
Why Don't We Follow All of the Old Testament Laws? – Summit Life with J.D. Greear
The Torah was a covenant between those who left Egypt and God, which was based on the blood of animals. Our new covenant, is not based on the blood of animals, through which the Torah came, but through the blood the Messiah, which is STILL based on the SAME TORAH, but it is fulfills Torah in a BETTER way, for rather than sacrificing a lamb as the Torah commanded, Yeshuah became the sacrifice that the Passover foreshadowed, and rather than offer a first fruits offering of barley 3 days and 3 nights later that year he was killed, the Messiah was resurrected as the first fruits from the dead, and because of these examples of a better fulfillment of Torah is why the Torah is NOT ABOLISHED according to the words of the Messiah, hence "I did not come to abolish the Torah, but to fulfill it" and "until heaven and earth passes away, not one jot or one tittle was pass from the Torah".
I already know the Torah. And as I explained, there are not just 613 commands. Not all commands in the Torah come in the form of "you shall not...". For example, the passage of Onan reveals that contraception and masturbation is a sin, in the form of a story. This alone proves that there are not exactly 613 commands in the Torah. This is a rabbinical myth.
Wow. Your interpretation of Gods word is very subjective and you definitely read into it ideas that it doesn’t present. Onan was killed for disobeying his father in relation to refusing to raise up seed for his deceased brother. It has nothing to do with contraception or masterbation.
Genesis 38:8-10 KJV
[8] And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. [9] And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. [10] And the thing which he did displeased the Lord : wherefore he slew him also.
Deuteronomy 25:5 KJV
[5] If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her.
In accordance to the Torah, not performing the Levirate duty did not bring a penalty of death as Onan received. It was because Onan spilled his seed that he was killed. Had he not had sex with his sister-in-law and spilled his seed, he would not have died, per what the Torah declares concerning the Levirate duty,
However, if a man does not want to marry his brother’s wife, she shall go to the elders at the town gate and say, “My husband’s brother refuses to carry on his brother’s name in Israel. He will not fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to me.” Then the elders of his town shall summon him and talk to him. If he persists in saying, “I do not want to marry her,” his brother’s widow shall go up to him in the presence of the elders, take off one of his sandals, spit in his face and say, “This is what is done to the man who will not build up his brother’s family line.” That man’s line shall be known in Israel as The Family of the Unsandaled. (Deuteronomy 25:7-10)
It is you who has an atrocious understanding of the Torah. That is why everything I am saying is a complete and utter shock and surprise to you. Because you are a person with little to no understanding of the Torah. You're lawless.
“The problem with this argument is that it does not sufficiently account for many other facts. First, in the levirate situation, the purpose of sex was specifically to raise up a child to one's brother. In fact, Genesis 38 does not even say that Tamar was Onan's wife, but only that Onan was to lie with her in order to get her pregnant. The fact that Onan eagerly engaged in sex with Tamar but refused to give her his seed indicates that he was in effect committing adultery with her -- not because it is wrong to prevent pregnancy, but because the only reason he was allowed to have sex with her in the first place was so that she would get pregnant. When the Law was later instituted, adultery was a crime punishable by death (Lev. 20:10). ”
“the Law contains no statutes condemning or even concerning contraception of any form. If sexual acts not designed to inseminate were really so heinous to God that they were punishable by death, it would seem that this would have been important enough to find its way into the Law, but the Law is silent here. “
“the argument assumes that God is not free to punish people in ways that exceed the maximum penalty of the Law. But in fact, the Bible nowhere limits God's authority in any way, shape or form. Besides this, the Law had not yet been given when Onan spilled his seed. ”
Contraception
Onan DID NOT commit adultery, for a person is freed from a marriage once their spouse dies... hence why there was a need for the brother-in-law, which was Onan, to perform the Levirate duty in the death of his brother, which was to give seed to his sister-in-law. This is something you made up that doesn't even make any logical sense. The Torah was very wise in forbidding contraception in this way, because had it said, "you shall not use condoms", then many idiots would have then said, "well it doesn't say don't use morning after pills", or "it doesn't say don't do vasectomies". In just one simple story, the Torah forbids all forms of contraception, and also masturbation. Yet even now many of you fail to understand the meaning of this passage because of your own lawlessness. The purpose of sex is to REPRODUCE, which is why a man always yields SEED when he ejaculates. And then, it is God who decides to GIVE offspring, if he chooses to open the womb. If a man chooses to have sex with his wife, he must always ejaculate inside his wife. This is the proper way to keep the marriage bed set-apart, in accordance to the Torah.
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