It needed to happen to accomplish God's will.
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What Was God Thinking?
- Thread starter Aaron
- Start date
Do the following two verses work together for the same purpose. Remember the last enemy to be destroyed. 1 Cor 15:26 the last enemy is done away -- In the Greek. the death) death; How does God destroy/do away with, the death?
Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through death he might destroy him having the power of death -- that is, the devil -- Heb 2:14
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, ( of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that ) that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8
I asked in another thread: Did the sin of the devil have anything to do with the creation of Adam?
I believe Adam was created because of the sin of the devil. Created so the works of the devil and the devil himself could be destroyed through, the death, of which the devil had the power thereof, before Adam was created.
Aaron is talking to the straw man again. I wish Aaron would recognize what the passage in Revelation was referring to. All Aaron is doing is peppering his speech with buzz-words from Calvinism. His belief in Calvinism is blinding him to the truth of the Bible.
Oh well.
Maybe this will help since I’m not the best explainer.
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I'll argue your redemption-of-angels angle in another thread if you wish. You're still saying the Fall was a necessary event, and that Christ's act of Atonement was the main event planned for mankind in this world from the beginning. That I agree with.
Lol. That is a wholly inadequate and somewhat paganistic view of the story. But at least I know what you're saying. You're saying the plan was to dwell forever with God in an unfallen state in an earth/heaven mix uninterrupted by the Fall. But Adam failed the test and ruined it all, then the plan of Redemption went into effect to restore the original earth/heaven mix.
That ignores some essential points of the Gospel*, the main being that Adam was not a partaker of the divine nature. He was not begotten of God. We are. He was not made incorruptible (obviously, because he fell), but as partakers of the divine nature, begotten and not made as Adam was, we are.
@Dave Gilbert was right when he said that the glory of God was the main purpose for creation. But I will say a particular kind of glory was in His sight.
Children's children are the crown of old men; and the glory of children are their fathers. Proverbs 17:6
And..
For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. Hebrews 2:11-13
*As well as some elements of the Creation Narrative.
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If it needed to happen and it was to accomplish God's will, then God must have caused it to happen. Would you say God caused it to happen?
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Particular
Well-Known Member
Did God cause disobedience to his command?
No.
Did God ordain that disobedience to his command could happen and would be allowed?
Yes.
Why did God ordain disobedience to be allowed?
God doesn't tell us, nor is he obligated to tell us.
What we observe is that God was merciful to Satan and the fallen angels when they rebelled in that he did not immediately annihilate them. Yet, God provides no grace to them. Their judgment is sure.
For humans, God also was merciful when they rebelled, but he goes further and provides grace to humans to whom he chooses. He provides an atoning sacrifice and covenant of promise to his chosen.
Why?
Again, God does not fully explain, nor is he obligated to explain. But, we know God is glorified as a Redeemer of rebels by his active choice.
Ultimately we are left with two responses articulated by Job and his wife:
Job 2:9-10
Then his wife said to him, “Do you still hold fast your integrity? Curse God and die.”
But he said to her..."Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?”
If we accept Job's proposal then we can respond to life as Habakkuk responded.
Habakkuk 3:17-19 Though the fig tree should not blossom, nor fruit be on the vines, the produce of the olive fail and the fields yield no food, the flock be cut off from the fold and there be no herd in the stalls, yet I will rejoice in the Lord; I will take joy in the God of my salvation. God, the Lord, is my strength; he makes my feet like the deer’s; he makes me tread on my high places.
Typical Calvinist double talk when it comes to the origin of sin.
If something needed to happen to fulfill God's will and it was planned to happen from before the foundation of the world, I see three possibilities here for the Calvinist:
1. God looked down through the corridors of time, saw that Adam would sin, and retroactively created his redemption plan. This view is almost always rejected by Calvinists.
2. God's plan was for Jesus to die on the cross from before the foundation of the world (and before Adam was alive), therefore God must have caused Adam to sin. This view is almost always rejected by Calvinists.
3. God's plan was for Jesus to die on the cross from before the foundation of the world (and before Adam was alive) and he waited around to see if Adam would indeed sin, so that God's plan would be fulfilled. This view is almost always rejected by Calvinists.
Particular
Well-Known Member
Typical man-centered response.
The Serpent takes the hit for that. He caused the fall to happen.
Lol!! Following ITL's example, that could be #1 on a list to counter the free willers whining.
Changes nothing as far as my three scenarios.
Did God cause the serpent to tempt Eve?
Or did God look forward in time and see that the serpent would tempt Eve?
A Calvinist response is also a man-centered response. I can't believe you indict yourself.
Particular
Well-Known Member
It's a God-centered response, trusting in the Supremacy and Sovereignty of God.
Who moved David?:
1 And again the anger of Jehovah was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them, saying, Go, number Israel and Judah. 2 Sam 24
1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel. 1 Chr 21
Who enticed Ahab?:
20 And Jehovah said, Who shall entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner; and another said on that manner.
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before Jehovah, and said, I will entice him.
22 And Jehovah said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt entice him, and shalt prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23 Now therefore, behold, Jehovah hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets; and Jehovah hath spoken evil concerning thee. 1 Ki 22
Who 'sifted' Peter?:
31 Simon, Simon, behold, Satan asked to have you, that he might sift you as wheat: Lu 22
Who 'buffeted' Paul?:
7 And by reason of the exceeding greatness of the revelations, that I should not be exalted overmuch, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, that I should not be exalted overmuch. 2 Cor 12
Who afflicted Job?
Who tempted Christ?
If you know the mind of God you should have the answers.
20 And Jehovah said, Who shall entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner; and another said on that manner.
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before Jehovah, and said, I will entice him.
22 And Jehovah said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt entice him, and shalt prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23 Now therefore, behold, Jehovah hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets; and Jehovah hath spoken evil concerning thee. 1 Ki 22
Who 'sifted' Peter?:
31 Simon, Simon, behold, Satan asked to have you, that he might sift you as wheat: Lu 22
Who 'buffeted' Paul?:
7 And by reason of the exceeding greatness of the revelations, that I should not be exalted overmuch, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, that I should not be exalted overmuch. 2 Cor 12
Who afflicted Job?
Who tempted Christ?
If you know the mind of God you should have the answers.
God places the blame squarely on the Serpent and that's all I need to know.
14 And Jehovah God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: Gen 3
("God says it and that's all I need to know" - you should add that one to your cute list of cop-out replies)
Changes nothing as far as my three scenarios.
Did God cause the serpent to tempt Eve?
Or did God look forward in time and see that the serpent would tempt Eve?
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In as much as He caused Job's suffering. There is nothing that happens that is outside His control or will.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
In the light of these Scriptures, what is your view of the Fall, ITL?
1) " And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Revelation 13:8 ).
2) " Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:" ( Matthew 25:34 ).
3) " But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you," ( 1 Peter 1:19-20 ).
4) "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is." ( Revelation 17:8 ).
5) " according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" ( Ephesians 1:4 ).
6) " in hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;" ( Titus 1:2 ).
" Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." ( Revelation 4:11 ).
" For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:" ( Colossians 1:16 ).
" Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" ( Romans 5:12 ).
" For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." ( Romans 5:19 ).
" And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life;" ( Genesis 3:17 ).
" For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead." ( 1 Corinthians 15:21 )
" Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 but every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." ( James 1:13-15 ).
Forget what the "Calvinist" says for a minute...
What do you see when you read the Scriptures?
Did He purpose the Fall, prepare for the Fall, or both?
Neither?
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