What's Wrong with Younger Pastors'???

[Revmitchell]

People should be visiting others without excuse.

People may not be able to get around as much as some would like. But people cannot expect to have any influence in the lives of church members if they remain at arms length all the time.

Now sometimes the demands from the church can be in conflict with being a godly husband and Father. But neither should that be an excuse for laziness and failing to meet with people reasonably and regularly. What goes on during, before, and after church services is not near enough.

This thread is about pastors....so that would be off topic.

 

[gb93433]

We need to be finding a way to minister to folks with odd work schedules. Recording Sunday services can be one way. Meeting with them when convenient is another. In some cases you can set up alternate service times for them.

What we have noticed is that soon they are tired and many quit going to church. They may come and go to church but that soon ceases. We have set up alternate times with no success. We have also agreed as a Bible study group to accommodate them with no success long term. One of the problems is that they seldom see the same people each time they work. The conclusion that I have come to is that they have not considered the cost before taking those jobs. I know one young man who has ministry among some as he can. He is a strong believer but had the training before he went to work there. Eventually he wants to be a pastor. I have noticed the pastor who has the most ministry among them is a man who grew up here and speaks their language. His parents are farmers. He is a man among men. A lot of what he does is not small groups but more like how ministry was done in small churches on Wed. night. Even when I ask workers and pastors the answers seem to be the same. They have few ideas. I have noticed that when they retire they are at church each Sunday and become involved in church ministry. It seems that as I listen to them talk they feel as though they neglected their family for many years due to their job.

 

[Havensdad]

Pastors should be visiting their people without excuse. Deciding not to visit them on a regular basis comes from a variety of reasons. Visiting your people has nothing to do with chasing anyone down.

Pastors may not be able to get around as much as some would like. But they cannot expect to have any influence in the lives of their church members if they remain at arms length all the time.

Now sometimes the demands from the church can be in conflict with being a godly husband and Father. But neither should that be an excuse for laziness and failing to meet with your people reasonably and regularly. What goes on during, before, and after church services is not near enough.

If people are missing church and I do not already know why then I want to find out. I am not going to assume they are sitting home watching football. Maybe there is something wrong the church can assist with.

That is simply not true. There is nothing in the Bible about chasing down members. Hospital visitation, WHEN YOU ARE CALLED FOR (James 5:14), is commanded, and evangelistic visitation is certainly spoken of (door to door evangelism), but there is not a peep in the Bible about running around gathering up church members.

Nothing to do with laziness. Our ministry is the Word. Not sheep petting. We are specifically told NOT to leave the ministry of the Word for physical ministry pursuits (Acts 6). Social visitation is the job of the deacons.

A proper sermon requires 10-15 hours of preparation. If you are traditional Baptist church, you have three services (Sunday Morning, Evening, and Wednesday). It is likely, if your church is decent size, that a man is neglecting his family, or neglecting his BIBLICAL pastoral duties, if he spends his time visiting folks unbidden, every time they miss a couple of services.

 

[Revmitchell]

but there is not a peep in the Bible about running around gathering up church members.

That is your exaggerated statement but it has no foundation in truth or the reality of what is going on or even what is being called for in this thread.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That is simply not true. There is nothing in the Bible about chasing down members. Hospital visitation, WHEN YOU ARE CALLED FOR (James 5:14), is commanded, and evangelistic visitation is certainly spoken of (door to door evangelism), but there is not a peep in the Bible about running around gathering up church members.

Nothing to do with laziness. Our ministry is the Word. Not sheep petting. We are specifically told NOT to leave the ministry of the Word for physical ministry pursuits (Acts 6). Social visitation is the job of the deacons.

A proper sermon requires 10-15 hours of preparation. If you are traditional Baptist church, you have three services (Sunday Morning, Evening, and Wednesday). It is likely, if your church is decent size, that a man is neglecting his family, or neglecting his BIBLICAL pastoral duties, if he spends his time visiting folks unbidden, every time they miss a couple of services.

What do you consider the proper size of a church to be then? Is there anything in scripture to suggest it?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

:thumbsup:

Church attendance ain't rocket science. If the sign says service are Sunday morning at 10:00 am then a responsible Christian person should be there ready to worship. If I have to come banging at your door, stroke your ego and beg you to come to service then it is time for you to consider another church. You are not needed here.

Let me preface that these are economically difficult times....so what if your job demands that you be there on Sunday?

 

[Havensdad]

What do you consider the proper size of a church to be then? Is there anything in scripture to suggest it?

I don't think there is a "proper size". I want to say a Church should be small enough so that the members know and support each other..probably less than 500. But I can't say that, because the Bible doesn't. It just says that the Christians in a given locale should meet together at least once a week.

Our church is in the 80 in attendance range, and it is fairly hard to keep up. I cannot imagine having 3 or 4 hundred more.

 

[Havensdad]

That is your exaggerated statement but it has no foundation in truth or the reality of what is going on or even what is being called for in this thread.

Sure it is.. "Oh no, I lost a customer. Let me go see if I can make him happy, give him concessions, and get him back!"

Its exactly what is being talked about. No one wants to admit it. But I have seen it, time and time again. Evangelism is neglected for the sake of sheep petting.

 

[Tom Bryant]

That is simply not true. There is nothing in the Bible about chasing down members. Hospital visitation, WHEN YOU ARE CALLED FOR (James 5:14), is commanded, and evangelistic visitation is certainly spoken of (door to door evangelism), but there is not a peep in the Bible about running around gathering up church members.

Nothing to do with laziness. Our ministry is the Word. Not sheep petting. We are specifically told NOT to leave the ministry of the Word for physical ministry pursuits (Acts 6). Social visitation is the job of the deacons.

A proper sermon requires 10-15 hours of preparation. If you are traditional Baptist church, you have three services (Sunday Morning, Evening, and Wednesday). It is likely, if your church is decent size, that a man is neglecting his family, or neglecting his BIBLICAL pastoral duties, if he spends his time visiting folks unbidden, every time they miss a couple of services.

What Jesus' story about the shepherd who left the 99 for the 1 sheep that had gone astray? Jesus isn't speaking about the unsaved because they were already His sheep. Part of a shepherd's and undershepherds responsibility is to care for the sheep.

With that said, I notice that people don't want to be visited in their homes without any prior notice. I don't like it either. But if someone was active in the church, faithful in attendance and then started missing, I would think a phone call, which is a type of visitation, an email, a text would be entirely proper for the shepherd who really cares for the sheep.

 

[Revmitchell]

Sure it is.. "Oh no, I lost a customer. Let me go see if I can make him happy, give him concessions, and get him back!"

Its exactly what is being talked about. No one wants to admit it. But I have seen it, time and time again. Evangelism is neglected for the sake of sheep petting.

You can always tell when someone is not entirely comfortable with their own position because they exaggerate and misrepresent things to justify their behavior. You do what you want. And shame on you.

 

[quantumfaith]

This thread is about pastors....so that would be off topic.

You must have recently been called to the ministry of moderator.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Peter disowned Jesus 3 times at the most pivotal point. He wept bitterly. When Jesus re-commissioned him (Jn 21) Jesus gave him, as the "voice" and the "face" of the new church, 3 commands

Pasture the lambs - literally, lead the new believers into rich feeding of the Word

Shepherd the sheep - literally, do ALL the work of a shepherd to the mature believers

Pasture the sheep - literally, special emphasis on the Elder doing the feeding of ALL the flock

Peter caught the meaning. 30 years later he wrote, "Shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly; not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock."

Part of MY role as Elder is to be a "shepherd", with special emphasis on "feeding" the flock. I try to teach this to my men (who I pray God will raise up as elders to replace me). Shepherding DOES mean feeding, but involves chasing down the strays, patching up the wounded, etc. For an Elder NOT to do this is to fail in truly shepherding.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Let me preface that these are economically difficult times....so what if your job demands that you be there on Sunday?

EWF, that's why many churches now have a Saturday evening service or Sunday afternoon or evening service.

The few folks we have who work on Sunday (my wife is one of them) can make our service since it is in the afternoon after they finish work, or between shifts. Most of our folks are college age and work third shift so an afternoon service works great for us. Then we also have a Sunday p.m. Bible study, a Wednesday p.m. Bible study, and a Thursday a.m. Bible study.

 

[Havensdad]

You can always tell when someone is not entirely comfortable with their own position because they exaggerate and misrepresent things to justify their behavior. You do what you want. And shame on you.

Not at all. Shame on you. "You disagree with me. You are bad" LOL. :wavey:

 

[Havensdad]

Peter disowned Jesus 3 times at the most pivotal point. He wept bitterly. When Jesus re-commissioned him (Jn 21) Jesus gave him, as the "voice" and the "face" of the new church, 3 commands

Pasture the lambs - literally, lead the new believers into rich feeding of the Word

Shepherd the sheep - literally, do ALL the work of a shepherd to the mature believers

Pasture the sheep - literally, special emphasis on the Elder doing the feeding of ALL the flock

Peter caught the meaning. 30 years later he wrote, "Shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly; not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock."

Part of MY role as Elder is to be a "shepherd", with special emphasis on "feeding" the flock. I try to teach this to my men (who I pray God will raise up as elders to replace me). Shepherding DOES mean feeding, but involves chasing down the strays, patching up the wounded, etc. For an Elder NOT to do this is to fail in truly shepherding.

Disagree. That text is about feeding (teaching) new Christians, mature Christians, and supervising the local body of believers.

Going after the stray sheep is the job of the Holy Spirit, and of Christ. You don't see Paul chasing after Demas.

 

[Havensdad]

What Jesus' story about the shepherd who left the 99 for the 1 sheep that had gone astray? Jesus isn't speaking about the unsaved because they were already His sheep. Part of a shepherd's and undershepherds responsibility is to care for the sheep.

With that said, I notice that people don't want to be visited in their homes without any prior notice. I don't like it either. But if someone was active in the church, faithful in attendance and then started missing, I would think a phone call, which is a type of visitation, an email, a text would be entirely proper for the shepherd who really cares for the sheep.

Jesus is speaking about His job, as God, of rounding up the elect into the Body. This is an evangelistic parable, not instruction on church discipline and organization.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I don't think there is a "proper size". I want to say a Church should be small enough so that the members know and support each other..probably less than 500. But I can't say that, because the Bible doesn't. It just says that the Christians in a given locale should meet together at least once a week.

Our church is in the 80 in attendance range, and it is fairly hard to keep up. I cannot imagine having 3 or 4 hundred more.

Wonder what scripture is telling us about Luke 9:14

(About five thousand men were there.) But he said to his disciples, "Have them sit down in groups of about fifty each."

 

[Tom Bryant]

Jesus is speaking about His job, as God, of rounding up the elect into the Body. This is an evangelistic parable, not instruction on church discipline and organization.

I would disagree. I understand what you are saying given your Calvinism. So maybe it's not a matter of you being right and me being wrong. We just interpret it differently.

I can't just be the feeder of the sheep. They have other needs than just eating. But we will disagree so have a great Labor day!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

EWF, that's why many churches now have a Saturday evening service or Sunday afternoon or evening service.

The few folks we have who work on Sunday (my wife is one of them) can make our service since it is in the afternoon after they finish work, or between shifts. Most of our folks are college age and work third shift so an afternoon service works great for us. Then we also have a Sunday p.m. Bible study, a Wednesday p.m. Bible study, and a Thursday a.m. Bible study.

I come from a RC background, this puts me in mind of 12 different masses on Sunday & two on Saturday. Is that what we are becoming? Its more of an observation, a question Mex than it is a criticism.

That kinda schedule must take away time the Pastor needs to devote to his family & his own needs, correct.... and/or then you would require more people on the staff to facilitate these multiple services. Isnt this a drain (both physically & economically) on the Church?

 

[abcgrad94]

A pastor's primary responsibility is the pulpit. Serving the physical needs of people in the church, including social visitation, is primarily the job of the deacons (Acts 6). This doesn't mean that we don't care about people, or do nice things for them, or make them feel welcome...we just don't use our study time, and pulpit time, for jobs that are rightly someone else's for, "Act 6:2 And the twelve summoned the full number of the disciples and said, "It is not right that we should give up preaching the word of God to serve tables."

So that is a big part of this: for too long the church has been viewed like a business, with the pastor seen as a salesman sent to round up dissatisfied customers.

But I will also tell you another big part of it. For the last 20-30 years or so, church participation has dropped off A LOT. So people come to church, they drop money in the plate, but a person actually getting involved is rare. And so what happens is us "younger pastors" of small churches, end up doing EVERYTHING. After fixing the sound system, the roof, and the air conditioner, and squeezing in some study time, you don't really have time to do anything else.

ESPECIALLY if you have a family. Us "younger pastors" have a wife, and kids, that "older" pastors don't have to deal with...and these deserve our time as well.

You absolutely NAILED IT! Thank you for your candid reply.

RD2, when the pastor DOES spend time with members, people easily get offended and jealous that so-and-so gets more time than they do, etc. It can become a reason for gossip and pastors and their wives have to be very careful not to show favoritism.