When Did the Church Start?

[mnw]

To those who seemed to say the Church started when Christ gave the Holy Spirit in John 20:22 I would what Christ meant in Acts 1:8?

I would like to raise some issues with the following list:

It had a Head--The Lord Jesus

That's right, after the resurrection and ascension of Christ.

It had an officer--Judas the treasurer

I know he carried the money, but to make him an officer in the NT Church seems a big jump to me.

It had the ordinances--baptism from the beginning and eventually the Lord's Supper.

Christ also spoke of the organisation of the Millennial Reign in His earthly ministry, does that also apply now?

It had a commission to preach, make disciples, baptize, and teach.

True, but I think this was still in the preparation stages of the NT Church.

It had a congregational business meeting to choose Matthias as Judas' replacement.

Do you cast lots at your business meetings?

There seem to be irreconciliable differences between Israel and the church. Did Israel observe the NT Church ordinances? Baptism and the Lord's Table?

Did they have the Holy Spirit in the same sense as the New Testament Church?

Do they have the same purpose, commands, regulations and privileges?

I cannot see any way that the Old Testament Israel can be equated with the New Testament Church.

Would you agree that the Body of Christ is the Church?

If so, how do we get "into" the Body?

I suggest the answer is found in I Corinthians 12:13.

Then we read in Acts 11:15 that the Holy Spirit fell on the Gentiles just like He did the Jews "at the beginning." Peter ties this in with Christ's promise to baptise us with the Holy Spirit.

Now, there are some clear links.

I Cor. 12:13 - We are baptised into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit
Acts 11:15 - This first happened at Pentecost, the beginning, as promised by Christ

I believe the church is a New Testament entity, started by Christ when He sent the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

 

[Brother Bob]

No one seems to be able to explain away this passage? It is very plain David was talking about Jesus Christ.

Acts 2:
21: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
22: Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25: For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

 

[Bro Tony]

No one seems to be able to explain away this passage? It is very plain David was talking about Jesus Christ.

Acts 2:
21: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
22: Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25: For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

Agreed Bro Bob, but what does that have to do with the Church?

Bro Tony

 

[LeBuick]

No one seems to be able to explain away this passage? It is very plain David was talking about Jesus Christ.

25: For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

Wasn't Joel saying Dvid prophesied about the coming Mesiah? I don't recall the Psalm but David wrote this in one of his Psalms. Are you saying foreseeing the Church is the same as belonging to the Church?

 

[EdSutton]

To those who seemed to say the Church started when Christ gave the Holy Spirit in John 20:22 I would what Christ meant in Acts 1:8?

I would like to raise some issues with the following list:

That's right, after the resurrection and ascension of Christ.
I know he carried the money, but to make him an officer in the NT Church seems a big jump to me.
Christ also spoke of the organisation of the Millennial Reign in His earthly ministry, does that also apply now?
True, but I think this was still in the preparation stages of the NT Church.
Do you cast lots at your business meetings?

There seem to be irreconciliable differences between Israel and the church. Did Israel observe the NT Church ordinances? Baptism and the Lord's Table?

Did they have the Holy Spirit in the same sense as the New Testament Church?

Do they have the same purpose, commands, regulations and privileges?

I cannot see any way that the Old Testament Israel can be equated with the New Testament Church.

Would you agree that the Body of Christ is the Church?

If so, how do we get "into" the Body?

I suggest the answer is found in I Corinthians 12:13.

Then we read in Acts 11:15 that the Holy Spirit fell on the Gentiles just like He did the Jews "at the beginning." Peter ties this in with Christ's promise to baptise us with the Holy Spirit.

Now, there are some clear links.

I Cor. 12:13 - We are baptised into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit
Acts 11:15 - This first happened at Pentecost, the beginning, as promised by Christ

I believe the church is a New Testament entity, started by Christ when He sent the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

With little question, "the church is a New Testamant entity", at least as references "the Body of Christ", and I agree, had to start after our Lord was crucifed on 'Thursday' (couldn't resist the opportunity to name the correct 'day', here :laugh on Mt. Moriah as our substitute/Passover, and was resurrected, on the third day. And I believe Scripture teaches that we are baptized "in" (Gr. "εν", cp. Mt. 3:11; Mk. 1:8; Lk. 3:16) the Holy Spirit (by the Lord Jesus Christ, himself), into the Body of Christ, when we believe in/on the Lord Jesus Christ, during "the dispensation of the grace of God". :thumbsup:

Uh, Tom! Uh- where does the NT ever list 'Treasurer' as a 'church office'? I distinctly recall three or possibly four. Those are 'bishop'/'elder', 'deacon', 'saint', and possibly 'deaconess'. But even the worst speller on the BB cannot possibly mistake any one of these for 'Treasurer'?!?! Actually maybe someone can, since I will grant, some do seemingly manage to pronounce 'bishop' and/or 'elder' as "Senior Pastor".

Ed

 

[LeBuick]

But even the worst speller on the BB cannot possibly mistake any one of these for 'Treasurer'?!?! Actually maybe someone can, since I will grant, some do seemingly manage to pronounce 'bishop' and/or 'elder' as "Senior Pastor".

Ed

Pastor means Shepherd or one who tends the flock. Run this back to the Hebrew.

Jeremiah 17:16 As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day; thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right before thee.

 

[Brother Bob]

Agreed Bro Bob, but what does that have to do with the Church?

Bro Tony

Don't that scripture seem to you that David must of been a part of the body of Christ, and if so there were others? Also, "He came unto His own", were they that received Him a part of His body also? I know there is a difference between Israel and the Church for they are two, but don't they become one when Christ said "upon this Rock I will build my Church". You know when He said I will build my Church, didn't He start off with the remnant of Israel? Were not all the first Christian Churches made up of a remnant of Israel?

 

[saturneptune]

With all this confusion, I thought Church started at 11 AM.

 

[Amy.G]

With all this confusion, I thought Church started at 11 AM.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[Brother Bob]

There are a lot of different minds on it aren't they?

 

[EdSutton]

At least answer this one fellows!

Acts 2:
21: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
22: Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25: For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

(Is David not part of the Church also?) I mean it was His throne the Lord came to sit upon.

No, David is "not part of the Church", but David is very definitely part of the redeemed, as much as any of us, today. And David didn't even come close to what any one of us have simply because we are "in Christ". David has or had two 'crowning' achievements, as it were, no pun intended; his seed which is the Lord Jesus Christ, and his throne, which he merely 'kept warm', for a time, until "the Seed should come", and the 'rightful heir', the Lord Jesus Christ, should assume the throne. But you and I are "heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ", something David never was or could be, but he looked for that time. And actually without us, he, like Abraham, Moses, and Samson, to name three, could not even be complete. (Heb. 11:39-40).
Yes, the Lord Jesus Christ is "to sit" on the throne of David. That has not yet occurred, but does occur during the 1000 year reign. The two passages in the NT, of which I'm aware, that speak of this both are in the future tense, - Lk. 1:32, and Acts 2:30, where Peter is recalling what was promosed to David, back when. Today, He is seated at the right hand of the Father. It is from there He comes with His saints in Rev. 19. After this, He sits on the Throne of David.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

With all this confusion, I thought Church started at 11 AM.

:laugh: :laugh:
And again at 7 PM, maybe? :thumbsup: :laugh:

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

You keep running into them though don't you?

Matthew, chapter 17

"4": Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

 

[EdSutton]

Pastor means Shepherd or one who tends the flock. Run this back to the Hebrew.

Jeremiah 17:16 As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day; thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right before thee.

Sorry, wrong language. :type: I'm referring to the "spiritual gift" of "pastor and teacher" as compared to the "office" of "bishop/elder". I have never yet run into anyone who considers "helps" or "tongues" as an "office" in/of the (local) church, and very few that would consider "evangelist", as one, to name a few of the gifts.

Why suddenly make a different distinction the Bible doesn't make, with "pastor and/ teacher"?

Ed

 

[Tom Butler]

Uh, Tom! Uh- where does the NT ever list 'Treasurer' as a 'church office'? I distinctly recall three or possibly four. Those are 'bishop'/'elder', 'deacon', 'saint', and possibly 'deaconess'. But even the worst speller on the BB cannot possibly mistake any one of these for 'Treasurer'?!?!
Ed

You are correct, as usual. Treasurer is not an office like pastor or deacon. But the brand-new church did have a treasurer.

 

[Tom Butler]

MNW says:

I would like to raise some issues with the following list:

Quote:Tom Butler
It had a Head--The Lord Jesus

MNW:That's right, after the resurrection and ascension of Christ.

Tom: Why not during his ministry? Except it doesn't fit dispensatonal thought.

Quote:
It had an officer--Judas the treasurer

MNW: I know he carried the money, but to make him an officer in the NT Church seems a big jump to me.

Tom: I was thinking of an officer in the sense of today's SS Superintendent, Church Training Director, etc. Not as a deacon or pastor. But still a treasurer with specific responsibilities.

Quote:
It had the ordinances--baptism from the beginning and eventually the Lord's Supper.

MNW: Christ also spoke of the organisation of the Millennial Reign in His earthly ministry, does that also apply now?

Tom: Jesus actually applied the ordinances by having his assembled disciples do them. Before Pentecost.

Quote:
It had a commission to preach, make disciples, baptize, and teach.

MNW: True, but I think this was still in the preparation stages of the NT Church.

Tom: Agreed to a point, except I'm thinking of preparation stages prior to Pentecost, and you're thinking of the Pentecost Day Founding.

Quote:
It had a congregational business meeting to choose Matthias as Judas' replacement.

MNW: Do you cast lots at your business meetings?

Tom: The point is not how they voted, but that they did it as a congregation.

MNW: There seem to be irreconciliable differences between Israel and the church. Did Israel observe the NT Church ordinances? Baptism and the Lord's Table?

Tom: I'm going to avoid much discussion of dispy stuff, although I know that's your starting point. I'm trying my best not to make the scriptures fit my theology, ecclesiology and eschastology. Just the opposite.

 

[Brother Bob]

JOHN 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

JOHN 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

REVELATION 19:11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.

12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.

13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

GENESIS 22:8 And Abraham said, The Word of the Lord will prepare for me a lamb; and if not, then thou art the offering, my son! And they went both of them together with a contrite heart.

 

[LeBuick]

And actually without us, he, like Abraham, Moses, and Samson, to name three, could not even be complete. (Heb. 11:39-40).

You lost me here, what does this mean?

Yes, the Lord Jesus Christ is "to sit" on the throne of David. That has not yet occurred, but does occur during the 1000 year reign. The two passages in the NT, of which I'm aware, that speak of this both are in the future tense, - Lk. 1:32, and Acts 2:30, where Peter is recalling what was promosed to David, back when. Today, He is seated at the right hand of the Father. It is from there He comes with His saints in Rev. 19. After this, He sits on the Throne of David.

Ed

Why do you feel he doesn't assume the throne of David until he rerutns?

 

[Allan]

Bob: There are 2 covenants, One pertains to Israel and the other those who are not Israel. Both are Gods people but are not the same people WITH the SAME promises. God has not completed or fulfilled yet His convenant with Israel (Old Cov.) and so is not done away with but yet to be accomplished (regarding the promises therewith) IN the 70th week of Daniel or known as the Tribulation (of the Jews). The New is not yet completed (New Cov.) either though it will be at the rapture. This is my view and a view held by many, though I'm assuming not one held by you. Correct?

Now back to the "when did the church begin?
Scripturally the Church could not have been in the OT since Jesus stated it was yet future. There is no getting around His statement about building His church.
But I find it a hard peice to swallow that it started 'before' Pentacost for a couple of reasons.

1. The Church is made up of Believers. Those who believe in Christ AND what He did (dead, buried, and rose again) We know He is God.

1(a) The disciples did not believe until AFTER the resurrection and Jesus HELPING THEM to understand.

2. The Spirit leads us into all truth, and reveals who and what Jesus is and has done. This is proof of the indwelling Spirit that has placed us into the Body of Christ known as the Church.

2(a) The disciples had to be shown by Jesus and through Him helping and revealing to them it was only THEN that they understood. No Spirit indwelling and revealing which is the mark of a believer. For it is His Spirit that bears witness with our spirit that we are of God.

Luk 24:9 And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest.
Luk 24:10 It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary [the mother] of James, and other [women that were] with them, which told these things unto the apostles.
Luk 24:11 And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.
Luk 24:12 Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass. ...
...
Luk 24:34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
Luk 24:35 And they told what things [were done] in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
Luk 24:36 ¶ And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.
Luk 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. ....
...
Luk 24:41 While they still could not believe {it} because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, "Have you anything here to eat?" [NASB]
Luk 24:42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
Luk 24:43 And he took [it], and did eat before them. ...
... and then we see ...
Luk 24:44 ¶ And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

These men were still looking for the same type of Messiah the other Jews were looking for and did not understand what the Messiah must do which is why they DID NOT BELIEVE Jesus ROSE from the dead. Compare Johns account when Peter and John ran to the tomb and did not find the Body of the Lord there and then compare it to Luk 24:45, 46

Jhn 20:8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.
Jhn 20:9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

NOTE: in verse 8 where it states they believed is not a reference to them believing in Jesus but they believed the account of His body not being there.

We also find the Spirit of God is not given to them as in the manner of salvation for just a few verses further in Luke Jesus states that He sends the promise of the Father upon them, But to tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on High. When Jesus breathed on the disciples and said "recieve ye the Holy Ghost..." we KNOW not all of the disciples were there but only 4 of them. Thomas was not there and Jesus went out to find Peter and with him was Thomas (Didymus), Nathanael of Cana, both sons of Zebedee and two other disciples as stated in John 21:1-2. So if the Holy Spirit WAS given it was given only to 4 disciples so did Jesus actually bestow at that moment the Spirit of God or was it an example of how the Spirit would be identified (the wind) to them WHEN He should come. There is no record of the Spirit of God coming on them the moment Jesus said this but that Jesus next statement was about their authroity to declare who are believers and who are not.

*IMHO*

 

[Allan]

One last thing on their supposed belief - For it is in this that one is called a child of God, that is - what we and IF we believe determines if we are saved.

This speaks to their (disciples) belief of Christ being the Messiah come from God:

Jhn 16:29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
Jhn 16:30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
Jhn 16:31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
Jhn 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

Jesus knew they did not understand who He truly was yet nor what He was to do, therefore they did not believe or better could not yet believe until all was accomplished that they MAY believe and be saved according to the New Covenant give to them and us.