When Did You Receive of God's Grace?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

The Grace of God is an interesting topic. My question is when does man receive the grace of God? Does he receive of God's grace antecedent to, at the moment, or subsequent to salvation?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

The Grace of God is an interesting topic. My question is when does man receive the grace of God? Does he receive of God's grace antecedent to, at the moment, or subsequent to salvation?

All three.

 

[savedbymercy]

The Elect were given grace in Christ Jesus before the world began !

2 Tim 1:9

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

They received it then !

 

[Michael Wrenn]

The Elect were given grace in Christ Jesus before the world began !

2 Tim 1:9

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

They received it then !

I believe all are given what Wesley called "prevenient grace".

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I suppose I should have started with the simple question as to what does God's grace that we receive consist of? Is God's grace separate from or co-existent with His salvation? If we receive of His grace are we in reality saved from that point forward?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Michael, you might want to expound on prevenient grace, what exactly it is, what exactly does it accomplish, and again who receives it and when?

 

[savedbymercy]

I believe all are given what Wesley called "prevenient grace".

Thats a lie, and what about 2 Tim 1:9

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[savedbymercy]

The Grace that was given to the Elect in Christ Jesus Jesus before the world began, is communicated to them in time at their New Birth 1 Pet 1:3

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Thats a lie, and what about 2 Tim 1:9

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

I'm warning you -- DO NOT call me a liar. I'm getting sick of people doing that just because they (you) can't stand to get your false beliefs challenged.

John 1:9 sets forth the truth of prevenient grace/the light of Christ.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Michael, you might want to expound on prevenient grace, what exactly it is, what exactly does it accomplish, and again who receives it and when?

Prevenient grace is very similar to what the Quakers called the Light of Christ, as described in John 1:9 -- the true light which enlightens every man.


Everyone receives it, from the beginning of life. It is God's way of revealing Himself to us and drawing us to Him.

 

[Matt Black]

My answer: every day, thanks be to God and to His glory.

 

[DHK]

Thats a lie, and what about 2 Tim 1:9

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

SBM, When you said, "That's a lie," referring to this statement:

I believe all are given what Wesley called "prevenient grace".

1. Were you referring to the statement itself as a theological statement. IOW, It is a lie because it is not what the Bible teaches, or:

2. Were you referring to Michael Wrenn, calling him a liar because you are accusing him of misquoting Wesley, or:

3. Were you accusing Wesley of lying for making that statement saying the statement in and of itself is a lie. So you are calling Wesley a liar.

Please be specific to whom you are calling a liar. Better yet, don't call anyone a liar, just tell us that you disagree with the statement and why.

 

[savedbymercy]

Now all those who were given Grace in Christ Jesus their Head and Surety before the world began, this Grace was also Eternal and Spiritual Life, so it is said of the Word, who is Christ, that in Him was Life and that it was the light of men Jn 1:4

4 In him was life[Spiritual Life]; and the life was the light of men.


This is not physical life, for the elect were given physical life in Adam. That Life was a corruptible Life, and a Life dead to God, Alienated from the Life of God.

However because of what Christ the Surety has accomplished for the Elect, having satisfied all of God's Law and Justice in behalf of the Elect, They have the Legal Right to received New and Spiritual Life, a Life they had been given in Christ as His Seed before the foundation ! So Christ gives and they receive from Him Grace for Grace Jn 1:16

16 And of his fulness have all we[Believers/Sheep] received, and grace for grace.

The Grace of Life is communicated to all Christ's members, the Grace of Life is Eternal Life. Peter said of the Saved Husband and Wife relationship, that they have received the grace of Life or they were heirs together 1 Pet 3:7

Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

We also learn from this scripture that only heirs of God, Joint Heirs with Christ will receive the grace of Life.

The Elect who became alienated and dead to God in their adamic birth, are because of their previous existence in Christ, they are quickened out of a dead state before God and hence, saved by Grace Eph 2:4-5

4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

Again, this application of Grace in time was given in Christ before the world began 2 Tim 1:9, and there is no other Grace, but the True grace of God 1 Pet 5:12

By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand.

All this other types of grace, common grace and all that, those are made up fables of men, falsehoods ! True Grace is heavenly, Spiritual and Life giving and Comes from God from above !

 

[savedbymercy]

dhk

SBM, When you said, "That's a lie," referring to this statement:

I believe all are given what Wesley called "prevenient grace".

Yes sir, and I specifically quoted it like that ! I did not say to him, you are a liar, but what he stated as a comment was a lie, look at post 7 !

 

[savedbymercy]

The reformed or calvinist also have what is called Prevenient Grace :

They link it with regeneration. One writer who I have read on it is :

http://www.pbministries.org/Theolog...ies In Strong Doctrine/strong_doctrine_01.htm

 

[Michael Wrenn]

dhk



Yes sir, and I specifically quoted it like that ! I did not say to him, you are a liar, but what he stated as a comment was a lie, look at post 7 !

And that's the same as calling me a liar, since you hold that what I believe is a lie.

I know you wish you could cut verses like John 1:9 out of the Bible, like Luther wanted to expunge the Book of James because it didn't support his views, but Jon 1:9 is there, and so is Titus 2:11.

 

[savedbymercy]

The prevenient grace of wesley is the attempt to allivate the problem of mans total inability spiritually to the things of God, and so they say God gives enough grace so to speak to give them a chance to make a wise choice or decision unto Life Eternal. This is false teaching. The sinner is Spiritually dead, and God gives those He has Chosen a New Spiritual Life, He quickens them, and then they call upon His Name as Per Ps 80:18-19

18So will not we go back from thee: quicken us, and we will call upon thy name.

19Turn us again, O LORD God of hosts, cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved.

Calling Upon the name Of the Lord as Per Rom 10:13

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


That calling upon His Name is the fruit and effect of having been quicken ! The word quicken is the hebrew word :

(Hiphil)

1) to preserve alive, let live

2) to quicken, revive

a) to restore (to health)

b) to revive

c) to restore to life

One must have Life to Call upon the Name of the Lord

So God out of His Great Love and Mercy when He finds His Dead Elect Child, Dead in Sin, Out of Mercy He quickens them Eph 2:5


5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

Now dead in sins here in the greek is present tense, in other when were being dead, in a state of death, like Lazarus was Jn 11:14

Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Now the greek word Paul uses in Eph 2:5 for dead is nekros and means:

properly

a) one that has breathed his last, lifeless

b) deceased, departed, one whose soul is in heaven or hell

c) destitute of life, without life, inanimate

2) metaph.

a) spiritually dead

1) destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins

2) inactive as respects doing right

b) destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative

The elect were in a continual state of spiritual death, a continual state of inactivity as it respects doing right !

It was while in that state, that God intervenes with Life, so it is said He hath quicken, which greek word is syzōopoieō:


to make one alive together

to produce alive, begat or bear living young

2) to cause to live, make alive, give life

a) by spiritual power to arouse and invigorate

b) to restore to life

You see how this word agrees with the hebrew word quicken in Ps 80:18

The greek word adds the definition to begat ! Thats crucial because the Elect are begotten again by the resurrection of Jesus Christ 1 Pet 1:3

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Thats why Paul writes in Eph 2:5 that we were quicken together with Christ, for His Resurrection is the firstfruit of the spiritual resurrection of all whom He died ! All this is of Grace ! God's Grace makes alive, it does not offer a choice , that is nothing but false teaching, nowhere found in the bible ! The concept of prevenient grace from the wesley suasion is nothing but another invention of men to boast about what they can do with their so called freewill , and it diminishes the Effects of the Cross !

 

[Michael Wrenn]

The prevenient grace of wesley is the attempt to allivate the problem of mans total inability spiritually to the things of God, and so they say God gives enough grace so to speak to give them a chance to make a wise choice or decision unto Life Eternal. This is false teaching. The sinner is Spiritually dead, and God gives those He has Chosen a New Spiritual Life, He quickens them, and then they call upon His Name as Per Ps 80:18-19

18So will not we go back from thee: quicken us, and we will call upon thy name.

19Turn us again, O LORD God of hosts, cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved.

Calling Upon the name Of the Lord as Per Rom 10:13

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


That calling upon His Name is the fruit and effect of having been quicken ! The word quicken is the hebrew word :

(Hiphil)

1) to preserve alive, let live

2) to quicken, revive

a) to restore (to health)

b) to revive

c) to restore to life

One must have Life to Call upon the Name of the Lord

So God out of His Great Love and Mercy when He finds His Dead Elect Child, Dead in Sin, Out of Mercy He quickens them Eph 2:5


5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

Now dead in sins here in the greek is present tense, in other when were being dead, in a state of death, like Lazarus was Jn 11:14

Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Now the greek word Paul uses in Eph 2:5 for dead is nekros and means:

properly

a) one that has breathed his last, lifeless

b) deceased, departed, one whose soul is in heaven or hell

c) destitute of life, without life, inanimate

2) metaph.

a) spiritually dead

1) destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins

2) inactive as respects doing right

b) destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative

The elect were in a continual state of spiritual death, a continual state of inactivity as it respects doing right !

It was while in that state, that God intervenes with Life, so it is said He hath quicken, which greek word is syzōopoieō:


to make one alive together

to produce alive, begat or bear living young

2) to cause to live, make alive, give life

a) by spiritual power to arouse and invigorate

b) to restore to life

You see how this word agrees with the hebrew word quicken in Ps 80:18

The greek word adds the definition to begat ! Thats crucial because the Elect are begotten again by the resurrection of Jesus Christ 1 Pet 1:3

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Thats why Paul writes in Eph 2:5 that we were quicken together with Christ, for His Resurrection is the firstfruit of the spiritual resurrection of all whom He died ! All this is of Grace ! God's Grace makes alive, it does not offer a choice , that is nothing but false teaching, nowhere found in the bible ! The concept of prevenient grace from the wesley suasion is nothing but another invention of men to boast about what they can do with their so called freewill , and it diminishes the Effects of the Cross !

To a hyper-Calvinist, everything is false teaching except hyper-Calvinism.

John 1:9 and Titus 2:11 are in the Bible; I know you wish they weren't, but there's nothing you can do about it -- thank God.

You go ahead now and talk to yourself. I've been down this road before and have no wish to traverse it again.

 

[savedbymercy]

mike

To a hyper-Calvinist, everything is false teaching except hyper-Calvinism.

You can call it what you will, you have just ignored much Truth. You also deny total inability.

John 1:9 and Titus 2:11 are in the Bible

Yes they are in the bible and neither one supports your false claims. I do not see them saying that God gives all men prevenient grace

You need to explain how these verses supports your erroneous claims, just like I explained my views with other scripture. As far as I am concerned both of those verses applies to the Church, the members of the body of Christ. Now you need to show us otherwise if you can ! Neither of those verses can apply to the serpents seed, the children of the devil, the vessels of wrath that God is fitting for destruction !

 

[Thinkingstuff]

mike



You can call it what you will, you have just ignored much Truth. You also deny total inability.



Yes they are in the bible and neither one supports your false claims. I do not see them saying that God gives all men prevenient grace

You need to explain how these verses supports your erroneous claims, just like I explained my views with other scripture. As far as I am concerned both of those verses applies to the Church, the members of the body of Christ. Now you need to show us otherwise if you can ! Neither of those verses can apply to the serpents seed, the children of the devil, the vessels of wrath that God is fitting for destruction !

Do you believe in Total Depravity? Or do you hold to a withholding of grace?