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When was Satan's Fall From Grace?

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Jon I put in bold the above.

And God saw the light, that good: and God divided the light from the darkness. Gen 1:4
1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Was the darkness in Gen 1:4 good also? Why did God divide the two?

From Heb 2:14 that through [the] death he might destroy him that had the power of [the] death, that is, the devil;

Before the man of flesh and blood was created from the dust of the ground had God already determined how he would destroy the devil?
Before the man was created was it already foreordained that Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: would die, shed his precious blood ?

Would that destroy the devil and his works and also redeem the, to be, created man from the earth of flesh and blood ?

Did the sin of the devil precede the sin of the man created flesh and blood out of the earth?

Could the following be said of the man given a spiritual law? Thou shall not eat of it. Rom 7:14 YLT for we have known that the law is spiritual, and I am fleshly, sold by the sin;

Was that Adam's state for the purpose of destroying the devil through Adam and his seed's redemption? Via the seed of the woman taken from the man?
I believe Genesis is speaking of light and dark (literally), like separating the land from the water.

Did the rebellion in heaven of Satan and 1/3 of the angles happen before the Garden? This is almost a non-questiij because it mixes the spiritual realm with the physical. We simply cannot know because it has not been given us to know.

I do not see value in speculating. There are no passages dealing with Satan's fall that intend to give us a timeline in relation to the physical world.

The purpose for "destroying the power of the one who holds the power of death" was to free mankind from Satan's bondage. Satan's time was always limited.
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I believe Genesis is speaking of light and dark (literally), like separating the land from the water.

Did the rebellion in heaven of Satan and 1/3 of the angles happen before the Garden? This is almost a non-questiij because it mixes the spiritual realm with the physical. We simply cannot know because it has not been given us to know.

I do not see value in speculating. There are no passages dealing with Satan's fall that intend to give us a timeline in relation to the physical world.

The purpose for "destroying the power of the one who holds the power of death" was to free mankind from Satan's bondage. Satan's time was always limited.
Ok let's approach this way.

in whom the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God; 2 Cor 4:4 YLT
because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places;

Did the darkness of this age begin with the little g, god of this age?
When do you think was the beginning of this age of the little g, god and darkness might have been?
Do you think if would have been relative to, the spiritual of the evil in unto the heavenlies ? The end of Eph 6:12.

1 John 3:8 YLT he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil;

When and where do you think the sin of the devil occurred? On earth or in the heavenlies?
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Ok let's approach this way.

in whom the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God; 2 Cor 4:4 YLT
because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places;

Did the darkness of this age begin with the little g, god of this age?
When do you think was the beginning of this age of the little g, god and darkness might have been?
Do you think if would have been relative to, the spiritual of the evil in unto the heavenlies ? The end of Eph 6:12.

1 John 3:8 YLT he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil;

When and where do you think the sin of the devil occurred? On earth or in the heavenlies?
I do not believe we can call Satan's rebellion "sin". Satan was not made in God's image, as far as we know. The devil is the one who holds man in sin. He is "the adversary".

But Satan's rebellion occurred in the "heavenlies" (he desired to ascend to the Most High). And 1/3 of the angels joined in the rebellion.

You do not have to put it differently because my answer will always be the same.

When men strive to know these things which are not revealed in God's Word it is speculation. I am not sure that such a desire itself is not sin. You are not seeking God's revelation to man but are instead desiring to possess God's knowledge.

God tells us this was a rebellion against God in heaven as Satan and 1/3 of the angles waged war against God.

But to find your answer of exactly when this rebellion in heaven occurred you need to consult Satan or demons as God did not say (but I do not know they will be truthful).
 

percho

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I do not believe we can call Satan's rebellion "sin". Satan was not made in God's image, as far as we know. The devil is the one who holds man in sin. He is "the adversary".

But Satan's rebellion occurred in the "heavenlies" (he desired to ascend to the Most High). And 1/3 of the angels joined in the rebellion.

You do not have to put it differently because my answer will always be the same.

When men strive to know these things which are not revealed in God's Word it is speculation. I am not sure that such a desire itself is not sin. You are not seeking God's revelation to man but are instead desiring to possess God's knowledge.

God tells us this was a rebellion against God in heaven as Satan and 1/3 of the angles waged war against God.

But to find your answer of exactly when this rebellion in heaven occurred you need to consult Satan or demons as God did not say (but I do not know they will be truthful).
My post said nothing about the rebellion of the devil. 1 John 3:8 states From beginning the devil is sinning. That is revealed in God's word. It does not state what that sin was nor when it took place.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
My post said nothing about the rebellion of the devil. 1 John 3:8 states From beginning the devil is sinning. That is revealed in God's word. It does not state what that sin was nor when it took place.
The rebellion (Satan and 1/3 of the Angles in heaven) was sin. Are you suggesting this happened after the fall of Adam?
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The rebellion (Satan and 1/3 of the Angles in heaven) was sin. Are you suggesting this happened after the fall of Adam?

Revelation Chapter 12

7​

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels going forth to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels;

Luke Chapter 10

17​

And the seventy returned with joy, saying, Lord, even the demons are subject unto us in thy name.

18​

And he said unto them, I beheld Satan fallen as lightning from heaven

Revelation Chapter 12

9​

And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.

1st Peter Chapter 5

8​

Be sober, be watchful: your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour,

Revelation Chapter 12

17​

And the dragon waxed wroth with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, that keep the commandments of God, and hold the testimony of Jesus:
 
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Paleouss

Active Member
Site Supporter
Greetings JonC. Hope and peace to you in our Lord Jesus Christ.
But who knows? I would ask why we even care when Satan fell.
I would agree that having an excessive unhealthy interest in the subject would be misguided. By misguided I mean not spiritually healthy. However, two points. First, there are some in our body and growing within our own congregations that bring external Jewish writings into our church houses. They, those that bring these theological doctrines, intend to forward ideas of angel procreation, demon origins, and tails of Satan's fall. Most assertions, imo, cannot be found anywhere in the Scripture.

There are two major prevailing attitudes. One from those that focus heavily, it would seem, on demonology and the like. These individuals have a lot of interest, study it frequently, and might be considered "well informed" on their view. The other major prevailing attitude is of those who think the issue isn't worth talking about, for the Bibles main purpose is God-to-man. These individuals would seem to care little about demonology, principalities and powers, or the spiritual warfare going on. They, imo, are frequently uninterested and therefore unstudied on what the Bible may or may not say about the subject. They therefore, because of their lack of interest, let those of the other attitude flourish. Never, or rarely, engaging with any false doctrine they might see. And when they do, they are often unprepared for the avalanche of information from those that are interested.

I do agree that the majority of our spiritual journey, and the Bible, has to do with our relationship with the Father and the Son. However, I also think that the Bible does give us enough clues about certain, not the main topic of the Bible issues. These clues of information that God does leave, He leaves so we can at least ward off false doctrine. That is my opinion.
My opinion (my guess) is this happened prior to the creation of man as Satan's desire was to ascend to the Most High and he took 1/3 of the angles with him (I do not see this in the Genesis account of man's fall).
It seems to me that if we order what you wrote...

A. Satan's desire to ascend to the Most High (Isa 12:14-15)
B. he took 1/3 of the angels with him (Rev 12:9)

It seems to me that #1 is a motive and explains the motive for the "pride"; “puffed up with pride he fell into the same condemnation as the devil” (1Tim 3:6). I'm not sure it has any information regarding the timing however. Maybe you could elaborate more to demonstrate how it refers to a timing.

  1. The Devil was created perfectly good. (Eze 28:15)
  2. The Devil was stationed, given dominion, on the mountain of God and in the garden of Eden (Eze 28:12-14).
  3. Until iniquity was found in him (Eze 28:15) at the beginning of mankind’s story (Gen 3:1-15)
So we know that the Devil was created good (perfectly) at his beginning until there was inquiry found in him. When this iniquity was found, the motive was to "ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God" (Isa 14:13).

Two points on the exact timing according to scripture.
a. "the devil has sinned from the beginning" (1John 3:8)
b. "Because you have done this, You [are] cursed more than all cattle...On your belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust All the days of your life (Gen 3:14) (cf Gen 3:1-5)

The first point, (a), the biblical text says the devil had "sinned from the beginning". This obviously doesn't mean Satan's beginning, for he was perfectly good until iniquity was found in him. Therefore the verse means to say that Satan has sinned from the beginning of the story of the garden. It is a reference of Satan's first sin being in the Holy Scripture's story of the garden of Eden and Adam and Eve.

The second point, the biblical text gives us, explicitly, a point of sinful act AND and point of curse for the Devil. Crawling on the belly and eating dust is an ancient poetic idiom for total defeat, absolute subjugation, and deep disgrace (Gen 3:14). This recorded curse that the biblical text gives is in the garden of Eden. Therefore, the garden of Eden, deceiving Eve, was Satan's first outward act of Rebellion.


Peace to you brother
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Revelation Chapter 12

7​

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels going forth to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels;

Luke Chapter 10

17​

And the seventy returned with joy, saying, Lord, even the demons are subject unto us in thy name.

18​

And he said unto them, I beheld Satan fallen as lightning from heaven

Revelation Chapter 12

9​

And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.

1st Peter Chapter 5

8​

Be sober, be watchful: your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour,

Revelation Chapter 12

17​

And the dragon waxed wroth with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, that keep the commandments of God, and hold the testimony of Jesus:
Yea... I view Satan's fall to be related to a war in heaven (Satan rebelling, seeking to be as the Most High) rather than an event that took place in Eden.

In fact, Satan rebelling before deceiving Eve explains Satan's deception.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Greetings JonC. Hope and peace to you in our Lord Jesus Christ.

I would agree that having an excessive unhealthy interest in the subject would be misguided. By misguided I mean not spiritually healthy. However, two points. First, there are some in our body and growing within our own congregations that bring external Jewish writings into our church houses. They, those that bring these theological doctrines, intend to forward ideas of angel procreation, demon origins, and tails of Satan's fall. Most assertions, imo, cannot be found anywhere in the Scripture.

There are two major prevailing attitudes. One from those that focus heavily, it would seem, on demonology and the like. These individuals have a lot of interest, study it frequently, and might be considered "well informed" on their view. The other major prevailing attitude is of those who think the issue isn't worth talking about, for the Bibles main purpose is God-to-man. These individuals would seem to care little about demonology, principalities and powers, or the spiritual warfare going on. They, imo, are frequently uninterested and therefore unstudied on what the Bible may or may not say about the subject. They therefore, because of their lack of interest, let those of the other attitude flourish. Never, or rarely, engaging with any false doctrine they might see. And when they do, they are often unprepared for the avalanche of information from those that are interested.

I do agree that the majority of our spiritual journey, and the Bible, has to do with our relationship with the Father and the Son. However, I also think that the Bible does give us enough clues about certain, not the main topic of the Bible issues. These clues of information that God does leave, He leaves so we can at least ward off false doctrine. That is my opinion.

It seems to me that if we order what you wrote...

A. Satan's desire to ascend to the Most High (Isa 12:14-15)
B. he took 1/3 of the angels with him (Rev 12:9)

It seems to me that #1 is a motive and explains the motive for the "pride"; “puffed up with pride he fell into the same condemnation as the devil” (1Tim 3:6). I'm not sure it has any information regarding the timing however. Maybe you could elaborate more to demonstrate how it refers to a timing.

  1. The Devil was created perfectly good. (Eze 28:15)
  2. The Devil was stationed, given dominion, on the mountain of God and in the garden of Eden (Eze 28:12-14).
  3. Until iniquity was found in him (Eze 28:15) at the beginning of mankind’s story (Gen 3:1-15)
So we know that the Devil was created good (perfectly) at his beginning until there was inquiry found in him. When this iniquity was found, the motive was to "ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God" (Isa 14:13).

Two points on the exact timing according to scripture.
a. "the devil has sinned from the beginning" (1John 3:8)
b. "Because you have done this, You [are] cursed more than all cattle...On your belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust All the days of your life (Gen 3:14) (cf Gen 3:1-5)

The first point, (a), the biblical text says the devil had "sinned from the beginning". This obviously doesn't mean Satan's beginning, for he was perfectly good until iniquity was found in him. Therefore the verse means to say that Satan has sinned from the beginning of the story of the garden. It is a reference of Satan's first sin being in the Holy Scripture's story of the garden of Eden and Adam and Eve.

The second point, the biblical text gives us, explicitly, a point of sinful act AND and point of curse for the Devil. Crawling on the belly and eating dust is an ancient poetic idiom for total defeat, absolute subjugation, and deep disgrace (Gen 3:14). This recorded curse that the biblical text gives is in the garden of Eden. Therefore, the garden of Eden, deceiving Eve, was Satan's first outward act of Rebellion.


Peace to you brother
It could be that Satan fell in the spiritual realm and this was manifested on earth. But, obviously, Satan is not a man ( Because your heart is lifted up

And you have said, ‘I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods , In the heart of the seas’; Yet you are a man and not God, (Eze28.2)

It appears there is a lot of dual meanings snd symbolism (perhaps speaking to the king and the power behind the king).

What I mean is we cannot know. We see clues because of the genre in what may not be clues at all but principles.

I guess the best way of putting it is since we cannot definitively know we cannot be dogmatic. I have my own opinion (which probably is in common with your view). I just mean it cannot be held as doctrine as the time of Satan's fall is not the doctrine being taught by those passages.

I am not saying you are right or wrong. Just that "clues" are not enough to form doctrine.
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Yea... I view Satan's fall to be related to a war in heaven (Satan rebelling, seeking to be as the Most High) rather than an event that took place in Eden.

In fact, Satan rebelling before deceiving Eve explains Satan's deception.

I believe the 'war in heaven' was mirrored on earth during the time of Christ and the apostles.

I believe jealousy explains Satan's deception of Eve, i.e., rebellion. Satan and the spirits had access to God in heaven during OT times but no longer under the NC.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
I believe the 'war in heaven' was mirrored on earth during the time of Christ and the apostles.

I believe jealousy explains Satan's deception of Eve, i.e., rebellion. Satan and the spirits had access to God in heaven during OT times but no longer under the NC.
I agree with the first part.

I do not know that jealousy explains Satan's deception, but it may. I lean towards it having less to do with man (Satan desiring to be in the role of God).
 

Paleouss

Active Member
Site Supporter
Greetings
It could be that Satan fell in the spiritual realm and this was manifested on earth.
I'm not quite clear on what you mean here. Do you mean, (a) Satan's internal corruption might have happened in the spiritual realm and then the first outward act happened on earth? Or do you mean, (b) Satan's internal corruption might have happened in the spiritual realm AND ALSO his first act of rebellion happened in the spiritual realm...AND THEN...he manifested that rebellion on earth?
But, obviously, Satan is not a man ( Because your heart is lifted up

And you have said, ‘I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods , In the heart of the seas’; Yet you are a man and not God, (Eze28.2)

It appears there is a lot of dual meanings snd symbolism (perhaps speaking to the king and the power behind the king).
Clearly the text you reference (Eze 28:2) is a proclamation against the king of Tyre (a human). This taunt against this human king uses metaphoric language to describe the human King’s exaltedness and fall from grace. The metaphoric language is intended to directly compare the hidden similarities (spiritual affiliation) between the King of Tyre and the profane, creating a vivid mental picture. This archetypal imagery gives us a good amount of information in our inquiry into understanding some of the ancient Hebrew knowledge of that one angelic figure we call “Satan” (the vivid imagery of the profane). Even if it is directed at the king of Tyre.

The information one can glean from Eze 28 is not the timing of Satan's fall, that can be ascertained elsewhere in the Bible. Ezekiel 28 gives us key phrases of the exalted status of Satan's initial creation state.

Key Phrases of Exalted Status (Eze 28:12-19)
  1. You [were] the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
  2. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God
  3. Every precious stone [was] your covering:
  4. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
  5. 14 "You [were] the anointed cherub who covers
  6. You were on the holy mountain of God;
  7. You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
None of the above tell us the "when".

A summary for our particular topic, Satan was initially created an "anointed cherub" that was given dominion, that is stationed or had access, "on the holy mountain of God" and "in Eden, the garden of God". It seems to me that one can confidently know, through these clues, that the ancient Hebrew people, through this archetypal language, associated these facts with the profane. Later revelation in the NT tells us this is Satan, one particular angel and the father of the profane.
What I mean is we cannot know. We see clues because of the genre in what may not be clues at all but principles.
I guess I would have to hear the evidence or reasoning behind the Principle View. Clearly, it would seem, the author of Eze 28 is relating, or associating, the physical with the spiritual (that which is on earth and that which is in heaven). Even if the taunt is about the king of Tyre, which I think it is. It still is associating him with a spiritual affiliation that is against God.
I guess the best way of putting it is since we cannot definitively know we cannot be dogmatic. I have my own opinion (which probably is in common with your view). I just mean it cannot be held as doctrine as the time of Satan's fall is not the doctrine being taught by those passages.
I totally agree that "Satan's fall" is not the doctrine that can be taught by Eze 28 passages. As I stated earlier in this post. Ezekiel 28 does contribute needed clues (information), however, it cannot by itself establish anything at all on its own about when Satan fell.
I guess the best way of putting it is since we cannot definitively know we cannot be dogmatic. I have my own opinion (which probably is in common with your view). I just mean it cannot be held as doctrine as the time of Satan's fall is not the doctrine being taught by those passages.

I am not saying you are right or wrong. Just that "clues" are not enough to form doctrine.
I'm wondering why Genesis 3:14 isn't compelling enough to form doctrine? I do understand that Genesis 3 may use typological, prophetic, and symbolic narrative language. However, it seems very common to glean fall information about Adam and Eve and use it as doctrine, but within the same story, people seem to want to ignore the other plot line about the serpent and suggest no doctrine should be formed from it.

(Gen 3:14 NKJV)
14 So the LORD God said to the serpent: "Because you have done this,
You [are] cursed more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust All the days of your life.


A. In Genesis 3:14 we find the FIRST recorded curse of the serpent. Further, this curse is the ONLY recorded curse within the biblical text of Satan. Thus, a question would seem to follow. Why is their doubt about when Satan was first cursed? Does not the biblical text explicitly give us a first and only curse? Would it not be speculation to say there might have been some other curse before that?

B. The biblical text explicitly indicates that the FIRST curse of Satant recorded in the Bible was given "Because you have done this" (Gen 3:14), which is referring to the previous verse when Eve says, "The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.” (Gen 3:13). Therefore, Satan's first recorded curse was BECAUSE of his actions in the garden of Eden, deceiving Eve (not for anything previously done).

C. The phrase, "On your belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust All the days of your life" is an ancient Hebrew poetic idiom for total defeat, absolute subjugation, and deep disgrace. It is the FIRST, explicit, reference to the rejection of God due to the open rebellion just mentioned within the biblical text.

So we have a first curse that is a total defeat and deep disgrace for the first recorded act of rebellion. It would seem that speculation is not needed.

But then comes the speculation...

1. But Satan must have had internal corruption before that first recorded act! When was that?
2. But what if there was an act before that first recorded act!
3. And so on...
4. And so on...

In summery...it seems to me that the biblical text tells us exactly when Satan fell, exactly the first act of rebellion that brought his curse and fall from his exalted status. Anything else would be, speculation.


Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure (Prov 2:1-6)
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
It certainly keeps with the pattern set forth in scripture.

I believe God inserted Adam into the garden and gave him dominion over the earth knowing full well that it would provoke Satan to jealousy. Thus the story of our redemption began.
I suppose Satan was jealous of God (he desired to ascend to the most high, to make himself god). I am not sure how we divide this from pride and coveting.

Man mirrors Satan's fall in many ways. Satan was created beautiful. Man was made in God's image. Both man and Satan's fall was directly related to their desires to obtain what was not theirs (to be like God).
 

Paleouss

Active Member
Site Supporter
Greetings to all my brothers in Christ.

The Irrelevant Distinction of Satan’s Inward Corruption​

It would seem that it is a common error among even the most studied and astute to make irrelevant distinctions when contemplating the steps in the logical order of Satan’s fall. Many, it would seem, have this tendency to make a distinction that inward corruption precedes external acts of corruption. This is a distinction that makes no difference for those who seek God’s word on the topic of Satan’s fall. This irrelevant distinction, as it relates to Satan’s first fall, must be put to bed.

As an example to critique, let's go to GotQuestions. GotQuestions writes…

We know that the angels were created before the earth (Job 38:4–7). Satan fell before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden (Genesis 3:1–14). Satan’s fall, therefore, must have occurred somewhere after the time the angels were created and before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Whether Satan’s fall occurred hours, days, or years before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden, Scripture does not say. GotQuestions.org

Now this statement by GotQuestions is the norm and not the exception, it would seem. Let’s look at the reasoning of the GotQuestions statement.

5. Angels were created before the earth (Job 38:4-7). [Correct]
6. Satan fell before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden (Genesis 3:1-14). [Error]
7. Therefore, Satan’s fall must have occurred somewhere after the time of the angels were created
and before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. [Error because of #6]

First, either GotQuestions assumes a position right out of the gate by saying “Satan fell before he tempted Adam and Eve”, or GotQuestions left out some really important steps in their reasoning. Let’s assume the latter and fill in some gaps.

  1. Satan’s first recorded act of rebellion was in the garden of Eden (Gen chpt 3).
  2. All external physical acts instantaneously and necessarily follow from the internal determinations, preferences, and volition of the soul.
  3. Additionally, the Holy Scripture tells us that if one lusts after a man’s wife, then he has already committed adultery in his heart.
  4. 4a. Therefore Satan must have first sinned internally, within his heart, before his sin of an external physical act. For a man’s choice logically precedes a man’s actions.

So far our reasoning appears sound. Most, if not all, would agree with 1-4. But what does this irrelevant but true point have to do with Satan falling if the biblical text explicitly gives us the act and the curse in Genesis 3?

Does GotQuestions, in their #6, want to assume our previous #1-4a? Surely they are not outright suggesting that there is logically and necessarily an outward act before the first recorded outward act in Genesis. So at first blush, it would seem they might be assuming our 4a, however, their reasoning appears to assume much more.

If one goes back to 1-4, one discovers that an external act always follows an internal choice. Therefore, if Satan outwardly tempted Eve, that outward tempting followed an internal choice to tempt. This logical succession of internal choice and outward act necessarily follows one another immediately (or relatively immediately). There are no “hours”, “days”, or “years” that separate the two.

So what GotQuestions wants to assume (or insert) that doesn’t actually follow from 1-4, is that there may have been premeditation on the part of the serpent. Premediation weighs options, outcomes, reviews data of possible goods and bads. So GotQuestions wants to add to 4a…

4b. Therefore Satan must have first sinned internally, within his heart, before his sin of an external
physical act. For a man’s choice logically precedes a man’s actions. ADDITIONALLY, choices
may include premeditation. Premediation is the antecedent process that presents motives for
choices, this premeditation could have taken hours, days, or years
.

The problem is we still cannot jump from 1-4b plus 5-6 and say that it follows that Satan committed some other outward act of rebellion prior to his deception of Eve. So GotQuestions appears to want to also add…

4c. Therefore Satan must have first sinned internally, within his heart, before his sin of an external
physical act. For a man’s choice logically precedes a man’s actions. ADDITIONALLY, choices
may include premeditation. Premediation is the antecedent process that presents motives for
choices, this premeditation could have taken hours, days, or years. FURTHER, it follows that if Satan’s
premeditation lasted a year then there could have been some other outward act of rebellion before the deception
of Eve (for who can go through a year of inward corruption and not sin outwardly)
.

It would appear that we have now flushed out the logic of this concept, or the lack of it. The reasoning wants to suggest that because of what we laid out in 1-4c, “there could be some other fall before the recorded fall of tempting Eve.” But what kind of sound study principle is that? Let's look at that logic…
  1. Satan tempted Eve and was cursed.
  2. Inward corruption precedes outward acts of corruption.
  3. Since inward corruption precedes outward acts of corruption. There could have been some other outward act of corruption prior to the outward act of deceiving Eve.
  4. Therefore, there was likely another outward act of corruption that preceded the outward act of deceiving Eve.

This logic just laid out, above, fails. It confuses and blurs inward and outward corruption. It does not follow, leads to an infinite regression if taken to the extreme, and cannot be proven, i.e., that another physical action happened before Satan deceived Eve simply because inward corruption precedes outward acts of corruption. It is pure speculation based on some kind of Motte and Bailey reasoning.

Motte and Bailey Falacy
Motte and Bailey reasoning combines a hard-to-defend view (the bailey) with an easily proven statement or view (the motte). When the hard-to-defend view is criticised or challenged, there is a retreat to the safe view to avoid the difficulties of the hard-to-defend view.
  1. Satan fell prior to the recorded fall in Genesis 3. [the bailey]
  2. Inward corruption precedes outward acts of corruption. [the motte]

Infinite Regress at It’s Extreme
If one strictly maintains that every outward act requires an inward act that then demonstrates that another outward act follows then the chain never ends.
  1. To deceive Eve (outward act A), Satan needed an inward corruption.
  2. If that inward corruption must be proven by a prior outward act B.
  3. Then outward act B requires its own inward corruption.
  4. That inward corruption would then require a prior outward act C, and so on forever.
Imagine a judge hearing a case on robbery. The prosecutor tells the judge that he has physical evidence that the individual stole something from the store. The prosecutor says, we have evidence of the act of robbery at a specific location. But then the judge says, this external act of robbery necessarily followed from an internal choice, which is also a crime. Further, since the man is 42 years old, we don’t know exactly when this criminal choice to commit this robbery was first conceived. It could be hours, days, or years prior to the robbery. It is therefore possible that this man committed other crimes, and since it is possible, we should then conclude that he actually did commit other crimes. Go out and find any clues that might suggest there were other crimes that this individual has surely committed.

In conclusion, the distinction that Satan’s inward corruption precedes Satan’s outward act of deceiving Eve means nothing, reveals nothing, suggests nothing, and adds nothing of value to the Genesis 3 text and what God is telling his readers, the faithful. Genesis 3 explicitly gives the reader the first outward act of rebellion, the first and only curse given by God to Satan. It does not imply, suggest, or hint that there was any other act of rebellion prior to this one first act in Genesis 3. Especially due to any fact that inward choices precede any outward acts.

Peace to you brothers
 
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Paleouss

Active Member
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1 John 3:8 states From beginning the devil is sinning. That is revealed in God's word. It does not state what that sin was nor when it took place.
Greetings to you percho. Peace and hope to you in our Lord Jesus Christ.

I'm wondering what your thoughts are on Genesis 3 are based on your quote of 1John 3:8. Is John not referring to something in the Scripture that his Jewish readers would recognize? Like maybe the story of Genesis chapter 3?

Peace to you brother
 

Scripture More Accurately

Well-Known Member
In conclusion, the distinction that Satan’s inward corruption precedes Satan’s outward act of deceiving Eve means nothing, reveals nothing, suggests nothing, and adds nothing of value to the Genesis 3 text and what God is telling his readers, the faithful. Genesis 3 explicitly gives the reader the first outward act of rebellion, the first and only curse given by God to Satan. It does not imply, suggest, or hint that there was any other act of rebellion prior to this one first act in Genesis 3. Especially due to any fact that inward choices precede any outward acts.
Does the Bible teach us the doctrinal or practical importance of determining precisely when Satan's fall was? If so, where and how does it do so?
 

Paleouss

Active Member
Site Supporter
Greetings to you Scripture-More-Accurately. Peace and Grace to you in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Does the Bible teach us the doctrinal or practical importance of determining precisely when Satan's fall was?
After reading the quote you referenced and then your reply, above. I am unclear as to your point or direction.

One way to take your comment would be a claim that since the Bible doesn't explicitly state the "doctrinal or practical importance of determining precisely when Satan's fall was"...then it isn't important and therefore shouldn't be given any time. This would simply be, it would seem, a weak objection that attempts to claim that something is false, unauthorized, or unimportant because the text fails to state it explicitly. God's silence on the "why" it is important can be for many reasons other than lack of significance. One could just as easily claim that since the Bible makes no explicit cautions against such an inquiry, it must be perfectly fine to make the inquiry.

As you probably know, there are many verses in the Bible that can be referenced that caution against false doctrine, false teachers, and cautions about believing in fables and endless genealogies. I'll assume you are aware of them. If you are connected with a church, and the mere fact you are on this board, you would know the interest and questions those of the body ask about the subject of "when did Satan fall?", "did angels really procreate with human women?", "Is there a "gap" of time between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 when Satan fell?". If those question are not properly attended and addressed...well, who knows what festers.

The importance, if you need one for your own understanding, could simply be to guard against the false information and doctrine that seeps into the congregation. Of course I would agree that some latitude of doctrinal tolerance would be needed since this topic, at its beginning, is most certainly not a primary doctrinal issue. However, I wrote "at its beginning" for a reason. That reason being that this topic of Satan's fall falls squarely within the realm of demonology. A topic where individuals study Satan, fallen angels, if they procreated with humans, if they think they did...then the study of a Nephilim genealogy. All of these topics seem to be a growing interest in my circles. In totality, this cumulatively paints a much different doctrinal picture that touches more than just third-tier doctrinal issues.

If this was not your point, then I missed it.

Peace to you brother.
 
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