Where did the wrath of God go?

[JonC]

It is not whether the death of Christ is advantageous to us....

When it comes to our redemption why should we place our faith in human understanding...in the philosophies of men??

God gave us His Word. God's Word is not, as you claim, an "empty husk" when not accompanied by Reformed teachings.

I want the best for you, brother. You have a zeal to share the gospel. But rather than experiencing the meat of the Word you suckled on the milk and turned back to "worldly wisdom" and humanistic philosophy.

Please consider that God gave us His Word so that we woukd understand, so that we would be equipped to teach the Word. Scripture is co.pkete and perfect because God is complete and perfect.

You do not need to continue exchanging God's Word for what men who "tickle your ears" tell you God is teaching. His Word is right before you.

Just accept Scripture as true...not as pointing you to another "teaching" but as actually teaching what is written.

Your zeal to share the gospel is overshadowed by it much too often not being the gospel that you are sharing. It I'd past time that you move on to "solid food". You had the milk but tried formula, and there remained. Seek out the meat of Scripture. Leave man's opinions and philosophies behind.

I promise, you will be better for it. If you need help, simply ask. But get to Scripture as quickly as you are able.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yeah...set aside biblical teachers and read your posts
..got it.lol.
Here is a secret for you...some of us can read scripture and check ourselves against solid teaching that has stood the test of time.
It is not an either or situation.
You like to make the posts about you, and what you think.
The teachers you ridicule are always about Jesus.
That's what I see.

 

[Iconoclast]

When it comes to our redemption why should we place our faith in human understanding...in the philosophies of men??

God gave us His Word. God's Word is not, as you claim, an "empty husk" when not accompanied by Reformed teachings.

I want the best for you, brother. You have a zeal to share the gospel. But rather than experiencing the meat of the Word you suckled on the milk and turned back to "worldly wisdom" and humanistic philosophy.

Please consider that God gave us His Word so that we woukd understand, so that we would be equipped to teach the Word. Scripture is co.pkete and perfect because God is complete and perfect.

You do not need to continue exchanging God's Word for what men who "tickle your ears" tell you God is teaching. His Word is right before you.

Just accept Scripture as true...not as pointing you to another "teaching" but as actually teaching what is written.

Your zeal to share the gospel is overshadowed by it much too often not being the gospel that you are sharing. It I'd past time that you move on to "solid food". You had the milk but tried formula, and there remained. Seek out the meat of Scripture. Leave man's opinions and philosophies behind.

I promise, you will be better for it. If you need help, simply ask. But get to Scripture as quickly as you are able.

JonC
I have tried to make it clear.
Every confession of faith puts scripture first.
Every Reformed teacher puts scripture first.
A biblical teacher follows Nehemiah 8:8...and what Jesus did in Luke24.
They do not repeat or combine partial verses....you do this often without explaining the meaning of the verse.
If that were the case there would be no preaching, no sermons, just public bible readings with no comment or instruction.
You do not have to caricature what I offer by how I have tried to make it understandable...connecting the theological dots,comparing spiritual with spiritual.
Here is another. A good sermon ,a good teaching, is like in unpacking a suitcase.open it up, explain the context, explain the words in their biblical meanings and usage, offer cross references, then Put it back together...Nehemiah 8:8...

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Forst of all, thank you, @agedman, for taking the time to lay out your understanding concerning PSA. I have taken the time to read all three posts, so if I don't quote every part of them, please be assured that I have read them and feel free to come back if you feel I've ignored anything.

Continuing in Romans we move to chapter 3:

19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the law. For the law merely brings awareness of sin.
This is also an important principle to hold when considering what happened to God's wrath.
The law brings the awareness of sin, not the justification needed.

This is true as far as it goes, but it needs to be said that the fault is not in the law, which is 'holy, and the commandment just and good' (Romans 7:12), but in ourselves that we can't keep it.(Romans 7:22-23).

Continuing with Romans 3:
21But now, apart from the law, the righteousness of God has been revealed, as attested by the Law and the Prophets. 22And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
How did that happen?

25God presented Him as the atoning sacrifice through faith in His blood, in order to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance He had passed over the sins committed beforehand. 26He did this to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and to justify the one who has faith in Jesus.

27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Certainly not! Instead, we uphold the law.[/QUOTE]
So, if we take verses 21 and 31 together, we can see that whatever 'apart from the law' means, it cannot mean that the law is nullified. Indeed, 'The LORD is well pleased for His righteousness' sake; He will exalt the law and make it honourable' (Isaiah 42:21).
So what does 'apart from the law' mean? It means that a way has been opened for guilty sinners to be forgiven even though they are guilty under the law, but the law, far from being abrogated, is actually upheld, exalted and magnified. How does that work?
It means that the Lord Jesus Christ has willingly taken all the sins of God's people upon Himself (Isaiah 53:6; 1 Peter 2:24) in such a way that He was judicially guilty of them though personally sinless. He has taken upon Himself God's curse against sin and sinners and expiated it. Otherwise the law is indeed nullified and God is unjust according to His own law.

There is a (mostly) excellent book by John Murray called Redemption - Accomplished and Applied (my copy by Banner of Truth). The New Birth is the application of redemption, but it is not the whole as you seem to be suggesting. The cross, and Penal Substitution, are the accomplishment of redemption. Both are necessary for the salvation of sinners like you and me.

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC,
Here are 8 helpful/insults offered by you that you do all the time.
1)[When it comes to our redemption why should we place our faith in human understanding...in the philosophies of men??[

No one has done this.You ignore the role of God given pastors and teaching to your own ascended master kind of pronouncements.
2)[God gave us His Word. God's Word is not, as you claim, an "empty husk" when not accompanied by Reformed teachings.]
When you offer it out of context ignoring the words in the text, the descriptor empty husks will suffice as you in reality have taken the core of the meaning away.

3)[I want the best for you, brother. You have a zeal to share the gospel. But rather than experiencing the meat of the Word you suckled on the milk and turned back to "worldly wisdom" and humanistic philosophy.]
Now you edify by suggesting milk,worldly wisdom,humanistic philosophy, are being offered by Turretin, Vos, Owen,Pink, Matthew Henry, etc.
They cannot come close to you,lol.
4)[Please consider that God gave us His Word so that we woukd understand, so that we would be equipped to teach the Word. Scripture is co.pkete and perfect because God is complete and perfect. ]
So...when Reformed teachers present it,they are not equipped, but you our ascended master post....you are equipped....starting to see a pattern.
5)[You do not need to continue exchanging God's Word for what men who "tickle your ears" tell you God is teaching. His Word is right before you.]
You cannot answer the links or the teaching of the Cals on here, so you ridicule as if it will elevate your posts. It is not working...we see right through it

6)[Just accept Scripture as true...not as pointing you to another "teaching" but as actually teaching what is written.]
I do with understanding.
7)[Your zeal to share the gospel is overshadowed by it much too often not being the gospel that you are sharing. It I'd past time that you move on to "solid food". You had the milk but tried formula, and there remained. Seek out the meat of Scripture. Leave man's opinions and philosophies behind.]
Yet another insult that is false.
8)[I promise, you will be better for it. If you need help, simply ask. But get to Scripture as quickly as you are able.]
Lol...maybe you need to examine your own ways..

 

[JonC]

JonC
I have tried to make it clear.
Every confession of faith puts scripture first.
Every Reformed teacher puts scripture first.
A biblical teacher follows Nehemiah 8:8...and what Jesus did in Luke24.
They do not repeat or combine partial verses....you do this often without explaining the meaning of the verse.
If that were the case there would be no preaching, no sermons, just public bible readings with no comment or instruction.
You do not have to caricature what I offer by how I have tried to make it understandable...connecting the theological dots,comparing spiritual with spiritual.
Here is another. A good sermon ,a good teaching, is like in unpacking a suitcase.open it up, explain the context, explain the words in their biblical meanings and usage, offer cross references, then Put it back together...Nehemiah 8:8...

This means exactly what it says:

Romans 3:21–31 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

 

[Van]

Where did God's wrath go? It did not go but abides on unbelievers.
Where did God's wrath go for believers? It was removed by the washing of regeneration.
When did God's wrath go? It did not go, but abides on unbelievers.
When did God's wrath go for believers. It was removed by the washing of regeneration when the individual was spiritually placed into Christ.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

JonC
I have tried to make it clear.
Every confession of faith puts scripture first.
Every Reformed teacher puts scripture first.
A biblical teacher follows Nehemiah 8:8...and what Jesus did in Luke24.

I think you should not be surprised by opposition to Biblical teachers and the Reformed Confessions.
Every false teacher must, of necessity, try to debunk the confessions. Otherwise his falsities will not be admitted. The most obvious American example of this is PCUSA and the old Princeton seminary. It is worth reading the biography of J. Gresham Machen by Ned B. Stonehouse in this respect.
Long before that, Presbyterianism collapsed in England in the early 18th Century when Unitarianism came in. But those who brought it in, of course, claimed to be following the Bible rather than the WCF which stalwartly proclaims Trinitarianism. The Particular Baptists were also infected because they did not follow the 1689 Confession.
You can read about it here:
Learning The Lessons of History (1)
Learning the Lessons of History (2)

Ecclesiastes 12:11. 'The words of the wise are like goads, and the words of scholars are like well-driven nails given by one Shepherd.'

 

[JonC]

JonC,
Here are 8 helpful/insults offered by you that you do all the time.
1)[When it comes to our redemption why should we place our faith in human understanding...in the philosophies of men??[

No one has done this.You ignore the role of God given pastors and teaching to your own ascended master kind of pronouncements.
2)[God gave us His Word. God's Word is not, as you claim, an "empty husk" when not accompanied by Reformed teachings.]
When you offer it out of context ignoring the words in the text, the descriptor empty husks will suffice as you in reality have taken the core of the meaning away.

3)[I want the best for you, brother. You have a zeal to share the gospel. But rather than experiencing the meat of the Word you suckled on the milk and turned back to "worldly wisdom" and humanistic philosophy.]
Now you edify by suggesting milk,worldly wisdom,humanistic philosophy, are being offered by Turretin, Vos, Owen,Pink, Matthew Henry, etc.
They cannot come close to you,lol.
4)[Please consider that God gave us His Word so that we woukd understand, so that we would be equipped to teach the Word. Scripture is co.pkete and perfect because God is complete and perfect. ]
So...when Reformed teachers present it,they are not equipped, but you our ascended master post....you are equipped....starting to see a pattern.
5)[You do not need to continue exchanging God's Word for what men who "tickle your ears" tell you God is teaching. His Word is right before you.]
You cannot answer the links or the teaching of the Cals on here, so you ridicule as if it will elevate your posts. It is not working...we see right through it

6)[Just accept Scripture as true...not as pointing you to another "teaching" but as actually teaching what is written.]
I do with understanding.
7)[Your zeal to share the gospel is overshadowed by it much too often not being the gospel that you are sharing. It I'd past time that you move on to "solid food". You had the milk but tried formula, and there remained. Seek out the meat of Scripture. Leave man's opinions and philosophies behind.]
Yet another insult that is false.
8)[I promise, you will be better for it. If you need help, simply ask. But get to Scripture as quickly as you are able.]
Lol...maybe you need to examine your own ways..

You have departed from what has historically been the Christian faith to accept a relatively new philosophy of the cross. This is fine as the antiquity and popularity of my view is not why I believe it is correct. But it does mean you inherit a responsibility to defend your position via Scripture. You cannot expect Christianity to change, to depart from what was held 15 centuries before the Reformation to accept the teachings of the Reformers.

Why do you believe it is necessary that man be born again?

 

[Aaron]

Your twisted cobbled together paraphrases of scripture are not accurate. Before you took 3 different parts of verses and tried to make them stand.

Yes, he uses the Jargon, but it's emptied of it's meaning, in some cases describing concepts actually foreign to Christianity.

JonC
I have tried to make it clear.

You have made it clear, but we need to keep repeating it. You noticed he will not respond to any presentation of the trespass offering, where his assertions are clearly falsified.

He says Christ paid no debt, but we see debts incurred by sin being paid in the trespass offering. It's not a matter of interpretation, unless one will assert that Christ is not the trespass offering.

 

[Aaron]

You have departed from what has historically been the Christian faith to accept a relatively new philosophy of the cross.

This has been debunked.

 

[AustinC]

You have departed from what has historically been the Christian faith to accept a relatively new philosophy of the cross. This is fine as the antiquity and popularity of my view is not why I believe it is correct. But it does mean you inherit a responsibility to defend your position via Scripture. You cannot expect Christianity to change, to depart from what was held 15 centuries before the Reformation to accept the teachings of the Reformers.

Why do you believe it is necessary that man be born again?

Jon, when the vast majority here disagree with you and show from scripture that there is no departing from God's word, your claims become nothing more than a clanging gong and banging cymbals.
We know you have a feeling of superiority and a derision for anyone who hasn't embraced your incomplete and muddy view of God's redemptive work. We know it is incomplete and muddy because you cannot even articulate it clearly. All you do is claim you have a few random verses without need for explanation. As I mentioned to another poster...Muslims and Mormons do the same thing.

So feel free to live on your island and yell at others that they are all wrong for living on the mainland. It's your right to do so. But, you have no biblical high ground on this topic so please, check your pride at the door.

 

[JonC]

Romans 3:21–31 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

 

[Revmitchell]

Athanasius I of Alexandria (c. 296–298 – 2 May 373). wrote "Here, then, is the second reason why the Word dwelt among us, namely that having proved his Godhead by his works, He might offer the sacrifice on behalf of all, surrendering His own temple to death in place of all, to settle man’s account with death and free him from the primal transgression."

"He had come to bear the curse that lay on us; and how could He “become a curse” otherwise than by accepting the accursed death? And that death is the cross, for it is written “Cursed is every one that hangeth on tree.” Again, the death of the Lord is the ransom of all, and by it the “middle wall of partition” is broken down."

Athanasius, On the Incarnation, 49, 54-55

 

[Revmitchell]

The fact that Jesus had to go to the cross and die alone speaks to, and is clear evidence of penal substitution. It literally makes no sense that anyone could not see that. If God could just set aside His justice and forgo His wrath and simply cancel our sin debt then, Christ's work on the cross was for nothing.

 

[JonC]

Athanasius I of Alexandria (c. 296–298 – 2 May 373). wrote "Here, then, is the second reason why the Word dwelt among us, namely that having proved his Godhead by his works, He might offer the sacrifice on behalf of all, surrendering His own temple to death in place of all, to settle man’s account with death and free him from the primal transgression."

"He had come to bear the curse that lay on us; and how could He “become a curse” otherwise than by accepting the accursed death? And that death is the cross, for it is written “Cursed is every one that hangeth on tree.” Again, the death of the Lord is the ransom of all, and by it the “middle wall of partition” is broken down."

Athanasius, On the Incarnation, 49, 54-55

Yep. I agree with the quote. Athanasius was a priest in the Coptic Orthodox Church. Good person to study (if you want to see the contrast between historical faith and Cslvin's Penal Substitution Theory).

Here, then, is the second reason why the Word dwelt among us, namely that having proved his Godhead by his works, He might offer the sacrifice on behalf of all, surrendering His own temple to death in place of all, to settle man’s account with death and free him from the primal transgression."

"He had come to bear the curse that lay on us; and how could He “become a curse” otherwise than by accepting the accursed death? And that death is the cross, for it is written “Cursed is every one that hangeth on tree.” Again, the death of the Lord is the ransom of all, and by it the “middle wall of partition” is broken down."

All I can say is Amen!!!! Christ did not suffer the wrath of God instead of us to free us from God's wrath. He "bore the curse that lay on us". He sacrificed Himself on our behalf. And he became a curse by accepting that death. He settled man's account NOT with God but with death (He suffered our wages) .

 

[JonC]

The fact that Jesus had to go to the cross and die alone speaks to, and is clear evidence of penal substitution. It literally makes no sense that anyone could not see that. If God could just set aside His justice and forgo His wrath and simply cancel our sin debt then, Christ's work on the cross was for nothing.

No it doesn't. It speaks to biblical redemption....not theories like Penal Substitution Theory.

Read your own rebuttal of Penal Substitution Theory via Athanasius. It was YOUR post, after all.

 

[Iconoclast]

I think you should not be surprised by opposition to Biblical teachers and the Reformed Confessions.
Every false teacher must, of necessity, try to debunk the confessions. Otherwise his falsities will not be admitted. The most obvious American example of this is PCUSA and the old Princeton seminary. It is worth reading the biography of J. Gresham Machen by Ned B. Stonehouse in this respect.
Long before that, Presbyterianism collapsed in England in the early 18th Century when Unitarianism came in. But those who brought it in, of course, claimed to be following the Bible rather than the WCF which stalwartly proclaims Trinitarianism. The Particular Baptists were also infected because they did not follow the 1689 Confession.
You can read about it here:
Learning The Lessons of History (1)
Learning the Lessons of History (2)

Ecclesiastes 12:11. 'The words of the wise are like goads, and the words of scholars are like well-driven nails given by one Shepherd.'

this is good reminder that truth cannot be welcomed unless the Spirit does His unseen work.
Thank you once again for a solid post and the fine links.
When we see doctrinal drifting it is sad.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes, he uses the Jargon, but it's emptied of it's meaning, in some cases describing concepts actually foreign to Christianity.

You have made it clear, but we need to keep repeating it. You noticed he will not respond to any presentation of the trespass offering, where his assertions are clearly falsified.

He says Christ paid no debt, but we see debts incurred by sin being paid in the trespass offering. It's not a matter of interpretation, unless one will assert that Christ is not the trespass offering.

Yes indeed..
Avoided like the plague.
Answers were not actually given because none were available.

 

[Iconoclast]

Jon, when the vast majority here disagree with you and show from scripture that there is no departing from God's word, your claims become nothing more than a clanging gong and banging cymbals.
We know you have a feeling of superiority and a derision for anyone who hasn't embraced your incomplete and muddy view of God's redemptive work. We know it is incomplete and muddy because you cannot even articulate it clearly. All you do is claim you have a few random verses without need for explanation. As I mentioned to another poster...Muslims and Mormons do the same thing.

So feel free to live on your island and yell at others that they are all wrong for living on the mainland. It's your right to do so. But, you have no biblical high ground on this topic so please, check your pride at the door.

yes...ascended masters feel they have risen above everyone else.
They can speak down to others.