Where did the wrath of God go?

[Iconoclast]

"JonC,

Again, what is the reason (in your faith) that men must be born again? If the rebirth that Scripture emphasizes is so important, how does this fit into your theory?

Jesus said this!3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

 

[JonC]

"JonC,



Jesus said this!3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

You are not grasping my question.

Per your philosophy God had to punish our sins laid on Jesus to forgive us is very detailed. But you miss one very important fact - Scripture is focused on this rebirth.

You can say we must be born again, but you cannot grasp a reason why.

It is in Scripture, but for you to acknowledge it you world have to deny your philosophy.

I am glad that you at least acknowledge the need of a rebirth even if you fail to grasp the reason.

But members need to pay attention to how quickly your theories have failed you. You, like Nicodemus, have no true concept of rebirth. You accept it must occur, but cannot understand the meat of God's Word even as it is right in front of you.

This is why I urge you to seek out Scripture ("what is written"). Then you will be able to give an account for your faith (as we are commanded).

 

[Aaron]

Where do you suppose the curse came from?

...for he that is hanged [on a tree] is accursed of God... Deuteronomy 21:23, Galatians 3:13

 

[Aaron]

Again, what is the reason (in your faith) that men must be born again? If the rebirth that Scripture emphasizes is so important, how does this fit into your theory?

The debate is about the death of Christ. That is central, and the thing shown and celebrated in the Supper, until He returns.

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC,

You are not grasping my question.

I did.
Jesus said this!3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

 

[JonC]

JonC,


I did.
Jesus said this!3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

The passage you quote is correct - that we must be born again. But your answer demonstrates that you do not grasp the reason. The reason is written in Scripture (several times, actually).

Why must man be reborn to see the kingdom?

To help you understand the question better - why is your theory that God punished our sins laid on Christ instead of us to pay our debt not enough?

 

[Aaron]

All I can say is Amen!!!! Christ did not suffer the wrath of God instead of us to free us from God's wrath. He "bore the curse that lay on us". He sacrificed Himself on our behalf. And he became a curse by accepting that death. He settled man's account NOT with God but with death (He suffered our wages) .

Except that, in the trespass offering, the account with God is expressly settled. It is written in plain language, and also in the deeds of the law. There is no rational denial of it.

Leviticus 5:15-16 If a soul commit a trespass, and sin through ignorance, in the holy things of the LORD; then he shall bring for his trespass unto the LORD a ram without blemish out of the flocks, with thy estimation by shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary, for a trespass offering: And he shall make amends for the harm that he hath done in the holy thing, and shall add the fifth part thereto, and give it unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him.​

But not the account to God only, but also to man.

Leviticus 6:4 Then it shall be, because he hath sinned, and is guilty, that he shall restore that which he took violently away, or the thing which he hath deceitfully gotten, or that which was delivered him to keep, or the lost thing which he found.​

 

[Iconoclast]

"JonC,

Again, what is the reason (in your faith) that men must be born again? If the rebirth that Scripture emphasizes is so important, how does this fit into your theory?

Jesus said this!

 

[Iconoclast]

"JonC,

The passage you quote is correct - that we must be born again. But your answer demonstrates that you do not grasp the reason. The reason is written in Scripture (several times, actually).

Why must man be reborn to see the kingdom?

I do...

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[JonC]

"JonC,



Jesus said this!

Yes. And we agree that one must be born again to see the Kingdom.

That is a very basic truth. But more than saying that one must be born again Scripture tells us why to see the kingdom we must be born again.

Can you answer for your faith, or are you still unable to grasp the spiritual truth written in God's Word telling us exactly why it is men must be recreated?

 

[JonC]

"JonC,



I do...

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

I understand. You do not know the reason why rebirth is necessary in order to enter the kingdom of God.

This is what I mean when I say that you need to study God's Word rather than remain in the elementary things of our faith. You should know the reason, and you should always be able to give an account to anybody who asks. But ,as your recent attempts to answer the question prove, this is a bit out of your reach.

First stick with Scripture. Once you have a solid foundation then consider reading commentaries from men, if you feel the need.

Scripture tells you exactly why one must be born again to enter the kingdom. You cannot see it, even though it is right before you, because it conflicts with your theories.

That is dangerous to our faith. We live in a time when too many Christians are biblically illiterate.

Try sticking with Scripture only, until you can truly give an account of the Christian faith. Keep trying, and praying. It will come if you are faithful (not to your traditions but to God).

Best of luck.

 

[Iconoclast]

"JonC,

Yes. And we agree that one must be born again to see the Kingdom.
That is a very basic truth. But more than saying that one must be born again Scripture tells us why to see the kingdom we must be born again.

Yes..Jesus said so
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC,

I will ask again...why must man be reborn?

Jesus said;
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

 

[AustinC]

Scripture is actually substance.

I will ask again...why must man be reborn?

Well, you still haven't touched the verses in Romans 5.
Romans 5:8-9
But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners. And since we have been made right in God’s sight by the blood of Christ, he will certainly save us from God’s condemnation.

But to answer your question with scripture, here you go.
John 3:3-7
Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

2 Corinthians 5:14-19
For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised. From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

It's all Christ substituting himself in our stead. Hard to believe you cannot see it, Jon.

 

[JonC]

"JonC,


Yes..Jesus said so
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Yes, Jesus did say so. But He also told us exactly why we must be born again toventer the kingdom.

 

[JonC]

Well, you still haven't touched the verses in Romans 5.
Romans 5:8-9
But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners. And since we have been made right in God’s sight by the blood of Christ, he will certainly save us from God’s condemnation.

But to answer your question with scripture, here you go.
John 3:3-7
Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

2 Corinthians 5:14-19
For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised. From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

It's all Christ substituting himself in our stead. Hard to believe you cannot see it, Jon.

Until you can answer the very basic question of why men must be born again in order to enter the kingdom there is really no point in going forward.

@Iconoclast is unable (and seems to be having a tantrum because of his failure).

The simple question is at the core of our faith. Do you understand the reason (what is written in Scripture)?

 

[Iconoclast]

"
JonC,

Yes, Jesus did say so. But He also told us exactly why we must be born again to enter the kingdom.

This is what I mean when I say that you need to study God's Word rather than remain in the elementary things of our faith. You should know the reason, and you should always be able to give an account to anybody who asks. But ,as your recent attempts to answer the question prove, this is a bit out of your reach.

First stick with Scripture. Once you have a solid foundation then consider reading commentaries from men, if you feel the need.
You have proven my point. I did not ask to ridicule you for not grasping the reason but to simply point out that the reason is in Scripture yet (because of your philosophy) it remains just beyond your grasp.

As Christians we need to get back to the Bibke. This is a failure in today's culture. Doctrine has slipped and made way for all kinds of "teachings" which ate not actually in the Bible.

People see what is not there and miss what is there.

That is dangerous to our faith. We live in a time when too many Christians are biblically illiterate.

Try sticking with Scripture only, until you can truly give an account of the Christian faith. Keep trying, and praying. It will come if you are faithful

 

[AustinC]

@JonC, it is become obvious that you have read a book that is not canonical which has influenced you tremendously. You so admire that authors take that you have bought in. Your scripture passages are disjointed and not contextually sound. Therefore you have resorted to a claim which many cult leaders use, which is to declare that you only are correct and all others are wrong. The founder of the Jehovahs Witnesses is an example. Now, I am not calling you a cult member. I am simply stating you have resorted to that tactic. On this issue, Jon, you have lost all credibility. Keep writing if you feel you must, but your words have become nothing more than noise at this point.

 

[JonC]

"
JonC,


This is what I mean when I say that you need to study God's Word rather than remain in the elementary things of our faith. You should know the reason, and you should always be able to give an account to anybody who asks. But ,as your recent attempts to answer the question prove, this is a bit out of your reach.

First stick with Scripture. Once you have a solid foundation then consider reading commentaries from men, if you feel the need.
You have proven my point. I did not ask to ridicule you for not grasping the reason but to simply point out that the reason is in Scripture yet (because of your philosophy) it remains just beyond your grasp.

As Christians we need to get back to the Bibke. This is a failure in today's culture. Doctrine has slipped and made way for all kinds of "teachings" which ate not actually in the Bible.

People see what is not there and miss what is there.

That is dangerous to our faith. We live in a time when too many Christians are biblically illiterate.

Try sticking with Scripture only, until you can truly give an account of the Christian faith. Keep trying, and praying. It will come if you are faithful

I do know the reason. It is written in the text of Scripture several times. And I have provided it to you, but to you those passages were foolish....just "empty hulls" and unconnected dots.

 

[AustinC]

Until you can answer the very basic question of why men must be born again in order to enter the kingdom there is really no point in going forward.

@Iconoclast is unable (and seems to be having a tantrum because of his failure).

The simple question is at the core of our faith. Do you understand the reason (what is written in Scripture)?

Jon, I just answered it with scripture.
You are right. There is no going forward when you ignore the answer that scripture provides you.

Time to close this thread.