Where did the wrath of God go?

[Iconoclast]

Yes, he uses the Jargon, but it's emptied of it's meaning, in some cases describing concepts actually foreign to Christianity.

You have made it clear, but we need to keep repeating it. You noticed he will not respond to any presentation of the trespass offering, where his assertions are clearly falsified.

He says Christ paid no debt, but we see debts incurred by sin being paid in the trespass offering. It's not a matter of interpretation, unless one will assert that Christ is not the trespass offering.

That is why I used the term empty husks.
Once we see this, we cannot un see it.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

All I can say is Amen!!!! Christ did not suffer the wrath of God instead of us to free us from God's wrath. He "bore the curse that lay on us". He sacrificed Himself on our behalf. And he became a curse by accepting that death. He settled man's account NOT with God but with death (He suffered our wages) .

Where do you suppose the curse came from?

 

[JonC]

this is good reminder that truth cannot be welcomed unless the Spirit does His unseen work.
Thank you once again for a solid post and the fine links.
When we see doctrinal drifting it is sad.

The issue with your faith is that it cannot be tested (it is subjective).

Consider what @agedman and I have posted. If you want to test it you can turn to Scripture and find what we have posted within the text of Scripture.

But you called those passages "empty husks", awaiting "teachings" revealed via done "proper understanding". To you, it is not God's Wordbthat is important but what ypu believe Hos words teach.

You test your doctrine not against Scripture but against what you believe Scripture teaches (you test your theories against your theories). And your appeal is not to Scripture but to Regormed teachers who teach what you have chosen to believe.

Again, I understand your position. I once stood where you are now. And I was no less saved then as I am having been enabled by God to let go of those philosophies.

Until you are willing to shake off human tradition you will never be able to grasp the truth of Scripture on this issue. It will continue to look to you as "empty husks" awaiting to carry "teachings".

But please consider that those words you dismiss, those passages, are not empty. They ARE what God is teaching us.

 

[JonC]

Where do you suppose the curse came from?

Romans 5:12–19 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Romans 5:12–19 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

OK. So where do you suppose the curse came from?

 

[Dave G]

Where did the wrath go that was appointed to believers, for we are also appointed to wrath.

" For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," ( 1 Thessalonians 5:9 ).

His elect are not appointed to wrath, but they are appointed to obtain salvation by Jesus Christ.

 

[AustinC]

Romans 5:12–19 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

Let us add this from Romans 5:8-9 which explains why Paul starts with the word "therefore" in your quote.

But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners. And since we have been made right in God’s sight by the blood of Christ, he will certainly save us from God’s condemnation.

 

[JonC]

OK. So where do you suppose the curse came from?

From man's disobedience.

Galatians 3:10–14 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.” However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”— in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

 

[JonC]

Let us add this from Romans 5:8-9 which explains why Paul starts with the word "therefore" in your quote.

But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners. And since we have been made right in God’s sight by the blood of Christ, he will certainly save us from God’s condemnation.

I also believe we are saved from God's condemnation - in Christ we escape the wrath to come.

Let's look at a larger context.

Romans 5:1–13 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;
4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;
5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

 

[JonC]

Jon, when the vast majority here disagree with you and show from scripture that there is no departing from God's word, your claims become nothing more than a clanging gong and banging cymbals.
We know you have a feeling of superiority and a derision for anyone who hasn't embraced your incomplete and muddy view of God's redemptive work. We know it is incomplete and muddy because you cannot even articulate it clearly. All you do is claim you have a few random verses without need for explanation. As I mentioned to another poster...Muslims and Mormons do the same thing.

So feel free to live on your island and yell at others that they are all wrong for living on the mainland. It's your right to do so. But, you have no biblical high ground on this topic so please, check your pride at the door.

You are wrong. A member should never abandon his beliefs simply because the "vast majority" of those participating on a thread (about 5 people) disagree with them.

Consider your belief. The vast majority of Christians disagree with you. Yet this minority belief is yours.

I have no feelings of superiority. I actually lifted (borrowed) those comments from Iconoclast (in his threads on the cal vs arm section).

You can only compare what you believe Scripture teaches to your belief about what Scripture teaches. I can test my belief against "what is written" (actually against God's Word).

I am not claiming a few random verses. I am pointing to the whole of Scripture (I am just not posting the entire Bible on the forum).

You and Iconoclast were shot down on several of the other threads, proven to be in error. You even flatly called two passages "error".

My point - stick to what is written. What you believe is taught is not the authority (that is what Mormons and JW's do). You need to accept God's Word and stop denying Scripture does not teach what is written therein.

 

[AustinC]

You are wrong. A member should never abandon his beliefs simply because the "vast majority" of those participating on a thread (about 5 people) disagree with them.

Consider your belief. The vast majority of Christians disagree with you. Yet this minority belief is yours.

I have no feelings of superiority. I actually lifted (borrowed) those comments from Iconoclast (in his threads on the cal vs arm section).

You can only compare what you believe Scripture teaches to your belief about what Scripture teaches. I can test my belief against "what is written" (actually against God's Word).

I am not claiming a few random verses. I am pointing to the whole of Scripture (I am just not posting the entire Bible on the forum).

You and Iconoclast were shot down on several of the other threads, proven to be in error. You even flatly called two passages "error".

My point - stick to what is written. What you believe is taught is not the authority (that is what Mormons and JW's do). You need to accept God's Word and stop denying Scripture does not teach what is written therein.

Jon, you are a broken record with no substance.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

From man's disobedience.

Galatians 3:10–14 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.” However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”— in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Genesis 3:17ff. 'Then to Adam [God] said......"Cursed is the ground for your sake..........."' It is God's word, written by God the Holy Spirit that proclaims, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them” and “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree.”
It is God's justice, His righteous judgment and wrath against sin, that inaugurated the curse, and it is His justice and mercy that led the Lord Jesus Christ. willingly to take that curse upon Himself and to expiate it upon the cross, so that in the new heavens and new earth, 'There shall be no more curse' and God shall be 'just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus.'

 

[AustinC]

I also believe we are saved from God's condemnation - in Christ we escape the wrath to come.

Let's look at a larger context.

Romans 5:1–13 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;
4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;
5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

You realize your verses start with a therefore. Shall we go back further?

I note you don't address the verses that show Jesus substitutionary atonement for us.
Romans 5:8-9
But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners. And since we have been made right in God’s sight by the blood of Christ, he will certainly save us from God’s condemnation.

 

[JonC]

Jon, you are a broken record with no substance.

Scripture is actually substance.

I will ask again...why must man be reborn?

 

[JonC]

You realize your verses start with a therefore. Shall we go back further?

I note you don't address the verses that show Jesus substitutionary atonement for us.
Romans 5:8-9
But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners. And since we have been made right in God’s sight by the blood of Christ, he will certainly save us from God’s condemnation.

Yes, I do.

 

[JonC]

Genesis 3:17ff. 'Then to Adam [God] said......"Cursed is the ground for your sake..........."' It is God's word, written by God the Holy Spirit that proclaims, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them” and “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree.”
It is God's justice, His righteous judgment and wrath against sin, that inaugurated the curse, and it is His justice and mercy that led the Lord Jesus Christ. willingly to take that curse upon Himself and to expiate it upon the cross, so that in the new heavens and new earth, 'There shall be no more curse' and God shall be 'just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus.'

Except none of the passages you present even come close to your conclusion. And be careful....@Iconoclast condemns the use of partial verses (or he would were he consistent). You may incur his wrath. Probably not, though. He has a double standard.

 

[Iconoclast]

"JonC,

The issue with your faith is that it cannot be tested (it is subjective).

I do not have an issue with my faith.

Consider what @agedman and I have posted. If you want to test it you can turn to Scripture and find what we have posted within the text of Scripture.

You post with no explanation.I can just read the bible for myself as the only things you offer are not in the verses,


[QUOTE]But you called those passages "empty husks",[/QUOTE]
I did not call scripture itself empty husks...I called your misusing scripture, random pieces of verses mixed together EMPTY HUSKS.

You test your doctrine not against Scripture but against what you believe Scripture teaches (you test your theories against your theories). And your appeal is not to Scripture but to Regormed teachers who teach what you have chosen to believe.

I BELIEVED WHAT IS KNOWN AS REFORMED TEACHING, BEFORE KNEW THERE WAS REFORMED TEACHING TEACHING.
So once again your accusation is a false caricature and insult, but that is what you do, isn't it?​

Again, I understand your position. I once stood where you are now. And I was no less saved then as I am having been enabled by God to let go of those philosophies.

You never have, and most likely never will.

Until you are willing to shake off human tradition you will never be able to grasp the truth of Scripture on this issue. It will continue to look to you as "empty husks" awaiting to carry "teachings".

Notice once again JonC twists what was said...I did not say scripture was an empty husk...just JonC using parts from 3 verses to avoid what scripture teaches,lol

 

[JonC]

"JonC,
I do not have an issue with my faith.

I know you don't. I didn't either when I held your view.

You are correct that I always had a higher view of the text of Scripture. You are wrong to assume I never believed Penal Substitution Theory or Calvinism. They were steps that I suppose I needed at one time.

Why do men need to be born again?

 

[Iconoclast]

"JonC

I will ask again...why must man be reborn?

I want the best for you, brother. You have a zeal to share the gospel. But rather than experiencing the meat of the Word you suckled on the milk and turned back to "worldly wisdom" and humanistic philosophy.

You have communicated your opinion here before and I understand that is what you believe. But that is not what is written in Scripture.

I hate to mention this, and you may not have noticed, but there are a few issues with your post.
Again, brother, you are proving my point. I have appealed to Scripture.
Everything depends solely on God's divine will.
You are allowing yourself to be a follower of men
You have the tail wagging the dog. Like the Jews who opposed Christ you are caught up in philosophies you have made centered on the law.
If you spent a fraction of the time you spend studying theology and works of theologians who "tickle your ears" on studying Scripture then you would have a chance of realizing your error.
When it comes to our redemption why should we place our faith in human understanding...in the philosophies of men??
Move on from milk to the meat of the Word.
Most will realize that it is very rare - despite the passages you quote - that you actually deal with Scripture. Most often you drift into philosophy, , and the writings of men you have chosen to follow.
You are wrong in the accusation that Scripture is mot enough, that God's Words are "empty husks" without philosophy,

You are a follower of men, not God, when it comes to theology. You have chosen a sect to follow and only those who "tickle your ears" are correct in your mind ...their philosophy bring greater than God's Word.

Please consider that God gave us His Word so that we woukd understand, so that we would be equipped to teach the Word. Scripture is co.pkete and perfect because God is complete and perfect.

You do not need to continue exchanging God's Word for what men who "tickle your ears" tell you God is teaching. His Word is right before you.

Just accept Scripture as true...not as pointing you to another "teaching" but as actually teaching what is written.
Your zeal to share the gospel is overshadowed by it much too often not being the gospel that you are sharing. It I'd past time that you move on to "solid food". You had the milk but tried formula, and there remained. Seek out the meat of Scripture. Leave man's opinions and philosophies behind.

I promise, you will be better for it. If you need help, simply ask. But get to Scripture as quickly as you are able.

You have departed from what has historically been the Christian faith to accept a relatively new philosophy of the cross. This is fine as the antiquity and popularity of my view is not why I believe it is correct. But it does mean you inherit a responsibility to defend your position via Scripture
Until you are willing to shake off human tradition you will never be able to grasp the truth of Scripture on this issue. It will continue to look to you as "empty husks" awaiting to carry "teachings".

But please consider that those words you dismiss, those passages, are not empty. They ARE what God is teaching us.

 

[JonC]

"JonC


I want the best for you, brother. You have a zeal to share the gospel. But rather than experiencing the meat of the Word you suckled on the milk and turned back to "worldly wisdom" and humanistic philosophy.

You have communicated your opinion here before and I understand that is what you believe. But that is not what is written in Scripture.

I hate to mention this, and you may not have noticed, but there are a few issues with your post.
Again, brother, you are proving my point. I have appealed to Scripture.
Everything depends solely on God's divine will.
You are allowing yourself to be a follower of men
You have the tail wagging the dog. Like the Jews who opposed Christ you are caught up in philosophies you have made centered on the law.
If you spent a fraction of the time you spend studying theology and works of theologians who "tickle your ears" on studying Scripture then you would have a chance of realizing your error.
When it comes to our redemption why should we place our faith in human understanding...in the philosophies of men??
Move on from milk to the meat of the Word.
Most will realize that it is very rare - despite the passages you quote - that you actually deal with Scripture. Most often you drift into philosophy, , and the writings of men you have chosen to follow.
You are wrong in the accusation that Scripture is mot enough, that God's Words are "empty husks" without philosophy,

You are a follower of men, not God, when it comes to theology. You have chosen a sect to follow and only those who "tickle your ears" are correct in your mind ...their philosophy bring greater than God's Word.

Please consider that God gave us His Word so that we woukd understand, so that we would be equipped to teach the Word. Scripture is co.pkete and perfect because God is complete and perfect.

You do not need to continue exchanging God's Word for what men who "tickle your ears" tell you God is teaching. His Word is right before you.

Just accept Scripture as true...not as pointing you to another "teaching" but as actually teaching what is written.
Your zeal to share the gospel is overshadowed by it much too often not being the gospel that you are sharing. It I'd past time that you move on to "solid food". You had the milk but tried formula, and there remained. Seek out the meat of Scripture. Leave man's opinions and philosophies behind.

I promise, you will be better for it. If you need help, simply ask. But get to Scripture as quickly as you are able.

You have departed from what has historically been the Christian faith to accept a relatively new philosophy of the cross. This is fine as the antiquity and popularity of my view is not why I believe it is correct. But it does mean you inherit a responsibility to defend your position via Scripture
Until you are willing to shake off human tradition you will never be able to grasp the truth of Scripture on this issue. It will continue to look to you as "empty husks" awaiting to carry "teachings".

But please consider that those words you dismiss, those passages, are not empty. They ARE what God is teaching us.

Again, what is the reason (in your faith) that men must be born again? If the rebirth that Scripture emphasizes is so important, how does this fit into your theory?