Featured Where did the wrath of God go?

The issue with your faith is that it cannot be tested (it is subjective).

Consider what @agedman and I have posted. If you want to test it you can turn to Scripture and find what we have posted within the text of Scripture.

But you called those passages "empty husks", awaiting "teachings" revealed via done "proper understanding". To you, it is not God's Wordbthat is important but what ypu believe Hos words teach.

You test your doctrine not against Scripture but against what you believe Scripture teaches (you test your theories against your theories). And your appeal is not to Scripture but to Regormed teachers who teach what you have chosen to believe.

Again, I understand your position. I once stood where you are now. And I was no less saved then as I am having been enabled by God to let go of those philosophies.

Until you are willing to shake off human tradition you will never be able to grasp the truth of Scripture on this issue. It will continue to look to you as "empty husks" awaiting to carry "teachings".

But please consider that those words you dismiss, those passages, are not empty. They ARE what God is teaching us.

 

Romans 5:12–19 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

 

From man's disobedience.

Galatians 3:10–14 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.” However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”— in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

 

I also believe we are saved from God's condemnation - in Christ we escape the wrath to come.

Let's look at a larger context.

Romans 5:1–13 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;
4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;
5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

 

You are wrong. A member should never abandon his beliefs simply because the "vast majority" of those participating on a thread (about 5 people) disagree with them.

Consider your belief. The vast majority of Christians disagree with you. Yet this minority belief is yours.

I have no feelings of superiority. I actually lifted (borrowed) those comments from Iconoclast (in his threads on the cal vs arm section).

You can only compare what you believe Scripture teaches to your belief about what Scripture teaches. I can test my belief against "what is written" (actually against God's Word).

I am not claiming a few random verses. I am pointing to the whole of Scripture (I am just not posting the entire Bible on the forum).

You and Iconoclast were shot down on several of the other threads, proven to be in error. You even flatly called two passages "error".

My point - stick to what is written. What you believe is taught is not the authority (that is what Mormons and JW's do). You need to accept God's Word and stop denying Scripture does not teach what is written therein.

 

Scripture is actually substance.

I will ask again...why must man be reborn?

 

Yes, I do.

 

Except none of the passages you present even come close to your conclusion. And be careful....@Iconoclast condemns the use of partial verses (or he would were he consistent). You may incur his wrath. Probably not, though. He has a double standard.

 

I know you don't. I didn't either when I held your view.

You are correct that I always had a higher view of the text of Scripture. You are wrong to assume I never believed Penal Substitution Theory or Calvinism. They were steps that I suppose I needed at one time.

Why do men need to be born again?

 

Again, what is the reason (in your faith) that men must be born again? If the rebirth that Scripture emphasizes is so important, how does this fit into your theory?