Where does faith come from? 2nd Rodeo

[Iconoclast]

No one calls these prophetic passages an allegory.....well almost no one.....haha.
Zion and Jerusalem are the CHURCH.....in Heb12.....and most of the Christian Church.

 

[SovereignGrace]

No one calls these prophetic passages an allegory.....well almost no one.....haha.
Zion and Jerusalem are the CHURCH.....in Heb12.....and most of the Christian Church.

In John 3 Jesus said “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”[John 3:3]

Nicodemus was a Pharisee of the Sandhedrin. Now, being born again was not something that started happening only after Jesus' arrival on the scene, but was already ongoing. He said to Nicodemus again, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at My saying 'you must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[John 3:5-8] But Jesus was speaking to a Jew and this does not apply to us because 90-95% of the four gospels took place while still under the Law, as Christ never fulfilled the Law until He was resurrected.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Here is the thing you do on regular occasion DHK. You stated faith comes from the Word of God, not from God directly. I provided solid theological evidence that this is not possible, that is, that it can come from His Word but not directly from Him. You have ignored all the evidence, which is typic al of you, then you pretend that 1) None was offered; 2) That the evidence didn't prove anything. However you do this without actually ever showing how or why it is faulty. You do not because you cannot so you take the route of denial then move into a straw man argumentation.

So here is how you did it in this area. You went from that argument to saying that I said God is the same thing as His Word, and, that the Word (Bible) is not God. Then you began to denigrate that position making pretense it were my argument. This is a deceitful and dishonest handling of what was spoken, yet this is how you react and interact in debate here. This is a well known fact and many have attempted to help you.

One last time I will offer my rebuttal. The thing is that you simply cannot and will not argue within the parameters given, nor can you disprove the position by careful exegesis, yet I will offer it one last time:

Part of the issue of DHK's misplaced theology stems from his thoughts and presuppositions on the position of man and God. It goes much deeper than this, but that is the basis.

DHK believes things come from man, such as faith. This is a subtle denial of God's omniscience but only on the surface does it appear to be subtle. When hashed out theologically, it is a fatal error. Discernment is needed to defend the faith from these false teachings; Jude 1:3, note Hebrews 5:11ff.

What he fails to realize, or at the least to utilize at all times in his theology is that God is the source of all things. All things. Not just some things. Everything. All power to live, breath, walk, think are given to man by God in this realm of time.

Since from God's Word comes faith, then that source of faith is directly from God Himself. To believe this is to hold to a consistent view of Him via the revelation of truth that all comes from Him. Doing this, preaching this is rightly dividing the Word, 2 Timothy 2:15.

DHK stated that faith comes from the Word (and I thought perhaps he was getting on the right track but that was short lived) then he undoes that belief of the truth with his presuppositions, defense of his Finney-like system by stating 'but not from God directly'. A half truth is not truth. God will not be patronized or flattered by this type of wresting of the truth He has revealed.

Everything that we have comes from God directly, and some abuse what power He has granted, by living in sinful ways, yet God even allows this.

We can do nothing without Him, we receive all things from Him; Job 1:22; Job 2:10; John 15:5; John 3:27; 1 Corinthians 4:7; Romans 10:17. There is plenty more but the fact is that it is God who is Omnipotent and Sovereign from which all these things come. For a person to deny that faith, that comes by His spoken Word, does not come from Him directly is a calamitous error and denial of truth.

The new birth only happens when husband and wife have relations, sperm fertilizes egg and ~ 9 months later a baby is birthed. No baby had a lot, matter or say in the matter. Jesus used that as an example to Nicodemus. Isaiah 66 used that as an example, too. But only Jews are born again, per DHK's dispensationialism.

 

[DHK]

No one calls these prophetic passages an allegory.....well almost no one.....haha.
Zion and Jerusalem are the CHURCH.....in Heb12.....and most of the Christian Church.

Perhaps allegory in referring to Isaiah 66 is not the best word to use. Jehovah is speaking to Israel and using descriptive language explaining to Israel how in the end times she will be restored to her land. It, in no way, refers to the church. Read the context.
Now answer this one question.

Is this happening today or has ever happened in history?

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

If not, then your interpretation is obviously wrong.

 

[DHK]

The new birth only happens when husband and wife have relations, sperm fertilizes egg and ~ 9 months later a baby is birthed. No baby had a lot, matter or say in the matter. Jesus used that as an example to Nicodemus. Isaiah 66 used that as an example, too. But only Jews are born again, per DHK's dispensationialism.

If your only motive on this board is to disparage dispensationalism you don't belong here.
And you certainly are off topic. That is not what the thread is about.
With this kind of post you lose a debate before you even begin.

 

[SovereignGrace]

John Gill's commentary on Isaiah 66:23...

Isaiah 66:23

And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another,
&c.] Or, "from month in its months" F17, The Targum is,

``in the time of the beginning of the "month in its month";''that is, in every day of the month; or rather every month: and from one sabbath to another;
the form of expressions the same as before; and in like manner paraphrased in the Targum; and signifies either every day in the week; or rather every sabbath, or first day in the week; for we are not to imagine that new moons and Jewish sabbaths, that is, seventh day sabbaths, shall now be observed, which have been long abolished, ( Colossians 2:16 ) but, as New Testament officers of churches are, in the preceding verses, called by Old Testament names; so here the times and seasons of Gospel worship are expressed in Old Testament language; and the sense is, that the people of Christ and members of churches, in the latter day, shall constantly attend church meetings; shall assemble together every month to celebrate the Lord's supper; and every Lord's day, to hear the word, pray and sing praises together; hereby enjoying much spiritual peace and rest, and increasing in evangelical light, signified by the new moons and sabbaths; and especially this will have a fuller accomplishment in the New Jerusalem state, when there will be a perfect sabbatism, which now remains for the people of God, and when their light will be exceeding great and glorious; and so the JewsF18 interpret this of the world to come, which is all sabbath or rest; that is, from all toil and labour, from sin and sorrow, from Satan's temptations, and the world's persecutions; but not from the worship and service of God; though that will be in a different and more perfect manner than now it is; as follows: all flesh shall come to worship before me, saith the Lord;
that is, men of all nations, and persons of each sex; not Jews only, and their males, as formerly, but men and women; not every individual, but all that will be converted, which will be many, shall come to the places of public worship, where the saints meet together for that purpose, and join together in it; and this they shall do continually and without intermission, as the first Christians did, ( Acts 2:42 ) ( Hebrews 10:25 ) . The Talmud F19 interprets this of such whose heart is become as flesh; see ( Ezekiel 36:26 ) these shall not only worship in the presence of God, and in the view of him the omniscient God, and by his assistance, and to his glory; but him himself, Father, Son, and Spirit, with reverence and devotion, in spirit and in truth, and that constantly, in the New Jerusalem, and ultimate glory, in the utmost perfection and purity.

This could not be a reference to heaven because in heaven there is no night...just one continuos day.

 

[percho]

In John 3 Jesus said “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”[John 3:3]

Nicodemus was a Pharisee of the Sandhedrin. Now, being born again was not something that started happening only after Jesus' arrival on the scene, but was already ongoing. He said to Nicodemus again, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at My saying 'you must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[John 3:5-8] But Jesus was speaking to a Jew and this does not apply to us because 90-95% of the four gospels took place while still under the Law, as Christ never fulfilled the Law until He was resurrected.

The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. Luke 16:16

Could the kingdom of God be seen and or entered before the resurrection of Jesus? Just what is it of a man who sees and enters the kingdom of God.

Does a man, see and enter the kingdom of God wholly, that is body soul and spirit, at the same moment or piecemeal? What, of the man, the whole man? is it that inherits the kingdom of God or is that piecemeal?

Who would one think or believe was the first man to see and or enter the kingdom of God? Who is stated to be the heir of God, the heir of all things. Heb. 1. Does he actually inherit from God? When? Who would one think or believe was the first man to inherit the kingdom of God? Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. Has that actually been applied to a man?

And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, nowno more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Acts 13:34
Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. Romans 6:9

 

[SovereignGrace]

If your only motive on this board is to disparage dispensationalism you don't belong here.

You have no right to say this. It is you who continually deflects and say the new heart and Spirit is for the Jews only.

And you certainly are off topic. That is not what the thread is about.

Uh, no I am not off topic. The new birth..which is what the Isaiah 66 passage I referred to, which you called an allegory, is what brings faith. It was on topic, but you see believers not having a new fleshly heart and spirit. This will be given to the Jews.

With this kind of post you lose a debate before you even begin.

Whatever dude.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. Luke 16:16

Could the kingdom of God be seen and or entered before the resurrection of Jesus? Just what is it of a man who sees and enters the kingdom of God.

Does a man, see and enter the kingdom of God wholly, that is body soul and spirit, at the same moment or piecemeal? What, of the man, the whole man? is it that inherits the kingdom of God or is that piecemeal?

Who would one think or believe was the first man to see and or enter the kingdom of God? Who is stated to be the heir of God, the heir of all things. Heb. 1. Does he actually inherit from God? When? Who would one think or believe was the first man to inherit the kingdom of God? Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. Has that actually been applied to a man?

And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, nowno more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Acts 13:34
Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. Romans 6:9

You need to rephrase this. I have no clue the thought(s) you are conveying here. Please simplify this...please?

 

[DHK]

In John 3 Jesus said “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”[John 3:3]

Nicodemus was a Pharisee of the Sandhedrin. Now, being born again was not something that started happening only after Jesus' arrival on the scene, but was already ongoing. He said to Nicodemus again, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at My saying 'you must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[John 3:5-8] But Jesus was speaking to a Jew and this does not apply to us because 90-95% of the four gospels took place while still under the Law, as Christ never fulfilled the Law until He was resurrected.

Perhaps you should have a round or two with Steaver.
Your position is highly suspect and very debatable. The new birth is also known as regeneration.
Steaver's position (as is the same position as many others) is that regeneration did not start until Pentecost with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Were OT saints actually regenerated? Is that the proper way to refer to an OT saint? Saved, yes. Righteous, yes. Justified, yes. But regenerated? I don't think so.

Regeneration as far as Grudem describes it must be an event that happens in connection with the both the Holy Spirit and the gospel, making it a NT event alone.

At least two passages suggest that God regenerates us at the same time as he speaks to us in effective calling: Peter says, “You have been born anew not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God.... That word is the good news which was preached to you” (1 Peter 1:23, 25). And James says, “He chose to give us birth through the word of truth” (James 1:18 NIV). As the gospel comes to us, God speaks through it to summon us to himself (effective calling) and to give us new spiritual life (regeneration) so that we are enabled to respond in faith. Effective calling is thus God the Father speaking powerfully to us and regeneration is God the Father and God the Holy Spirit working powerfully in us to make us alive. These two things must have happened simultaneously as Peter was preaching the gospel to the household of Cornelius, for while he was still preaching “the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word” (Acts 10:44).

Thus your example is totally inadequate, even from another Calvinist viewpoint.

 

[DHK]

You have no right to say this. It is you who continually deflects and say the new heart and Spirit is for the Jews only.


Uh, no I am not off topic. The new birth..which is what the Isaiah 66 passage I referred to, which you called an allegory, is what brings faith. It was on topic, but you see believers not having a new fleshly heart and spirit. This will be given to the Jews.


Whatever dude.

Are you not having a very good day SG. Your demeanor certainly has changed?
I will ask you the same question that I asked Icon. If Isa. 66 is speakng of the church and/or the new birth then give an answer for the rest of the context:

Is this happening today or has ever happened in history?

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

If not, then your interpretation is obviously wrong.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Perhaps you should have a round or two with Steaver.
Your position is highly suspect and very debatable. The new birth is also known as regeneration.
Steaver's position (as is the same position as many others) is that regeneration did not start until Pentecost with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Were OT saints actually regenerated? Is that the proper way to refer to an OT saint? Saved, yes. Righteous, yes. Justified, yes. But regenerated? I don't think so.

Regeneration as far as Grudem describes it must be an event that happens in connection with the both the Holy Spirit and the gospel, making it a NT event alone.

Thus your example is totally inadequate, even from another Calvinist viewpoint.

Sooo, people were saved yet no regenerated? Impossible, as the Spirit is what regenerates sinners.

That is why Jesus flew into Nicodemus. Jesus said to him “You are Israel’s teacher," said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?[John 3:10-12]

The new birth, the birth from above, being born anew, was as much a reality in the OT as it is now. That is why Jesus flew into Nicodemus. He told him 'you must be born again', and this was pre-cross, too.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

This thread is closed.

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