Where does faith come from? 2nd Rodeo

[TCassidy]

BTW I used the TR because I believe, "τῆς" before faith is important for understanding.

Why?

Is it definite?

Yes. It is a genitive singular feminine definite article.

If it is, then don't one have to ask whose faith is being spoken of, your own? I believe to leave, τῆς, out then makes it, your own, where as I do not believe faith there is what comes from the man. Why did Young leave it out? It was my understanding he was interlinear to the TR?

διὰ τῆς πίστεως for the faith in the atonement made by Christ (Romans 3:25; Romans 3:30, al.) is, as the apprehending cause of the Messianic salvation, the necessary mediate instrument on the part of man, while the χάρις is the divine motive, the efficient cause of the bestowal of the faith on the lost. The emphasis, however, is retained by τῇ χάριτι alone, and διὰ τῆς πίστ. is only the modal definition to σεσωσμ.

 

[TCassidy]

A word can be definite in Greek without the article. Just FYI.

Correct. The presence of the article makes it definite but the absence of the article does not necessarily demand it to be indefinite. John 1:1 is an excellent example.

εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος

The definite article is missing from the last clause, but "God" (θεος) is in the emphatic position so Greek grammar demands that "God" be definite, much to the JWs consternation.

 

[SovereignGrace]

mwc, before we too carried away with talking about Cain, let's focus on 'faith is based upon relationship', okay?

The picture of Christ and His own has many allegorical pictures.
1) Shepherd and Sheep
2) Father and Son
3) Master and slave
4) Husband and bride

I want to focus on # 4 and use Ephesians 5:25 for my example...

"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her."

Our relationship with Christ is as a marriage. When were saved, we're married to Him, marriage certificate in hand, so-to-speak. It is once...at that very moment...we exercise faith, we are married to Him. Prior to this, we had no relationship with Him...or His word...read 1 Corinthians 2:14 & Romans 8:7. We had no relationship with God...or His word...but were His enemy. If faith is based on relationship, none would have been saved. For none sought, or seek, after Him. It is He who instigates our walk with Him.

Carry this over to the example Bro. DHK used with marrying his wife. If it played out the same way, he'd went up and picked out a woman who hated his guts and married her. We hated His guts, yet He came to us, quickened us, gave us faith and repentance and married Him right then and there. Hosea and Gomer paint this beautiful picture of biblical truth.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Why?Yes. It is a genitive singular feminine definite article.

διὰ τῆς πίστεως for the faith in the atonement made by Christ (Romans 3:25; Romans 3:30, al.) is, as the apprehending cause of the Messianic salvation, the necessary mediate instrument on the part of man, while the χάρις is the divine motive, the efficient cause of the bestowal of the faith on the lost. The emphasis, however, is retained by τῇ χάριτι alone, and διὰ τῆς πίστ. is only the modal definition to σεσωσμ.

 

[revmwc]

Wonderful verse full of truth.


Many have hope in winning the lottery to live a life of luxury. To travel the world, visit France and stroll through Champs-Elysées. Many want fame and prestige and work hard to make it in Nashville, Hollywood, broadway, and place their hopes in music and/or acting. All of these are carnal/natural/physical hopes, as they have their faith in everything but God.


These are all examples of that innate faith all people have. They have a relationship with that faith and exercise it all the time. I have faith my car gets me back and forth to work, but if it breaks down, my faith is destroyed. This is innate faith. I also have faith that God will do for me what He has purposed for me in this life and the life yet to come when He returns. That is spiritual, God-given faith, Monsieur.


Already answered this in my previous post.


No 'if' about it, He does, mon frere.


To expose his sin unto him.


Cain was justly punished for killing his brother. In fact, God showed him mercy by not taking his life right then and there. All people have the requirement to do the right thing all the time. Yet, their fallen nature precludes them from doing it many times.

Cain was punished on earth for murdering his brother. He like all who are going to end up in the Lake of fire are there for 1 reason.

"John 3:
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

This includes Cain the first to believe that not place Faith in Christ. So if God gives Faith then God has condemned them for His not supplying them the Faith to Believe. Yet Jesus said He didn't come to condemn the world that is all mankind, He came to Save All mankind ( the World).
So now the question: If they are condemned because they don't believe on the Son of God as Jesus said, then do you see that this verse reads incorrectly? Should it not say I came to save only those who are given Faith to believe?

For the O.T. people including Cain they were to believe in the Savior who was promised in "Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

The exact thing Cain failed to believe then, do you believe God, that is Christ came not into the world to save the world but that only the chosen were who He came to save. Therefore as 1 John 2:2 states, And He Propitiation is about the misses of us not about the our more yet only but and about whole of the world, again a form of the same term Jesus uses Kosmou. "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only but also for the whole world."
Now let's look at this, He = Jesus id the propitiation=appeasement for our sin: and not for ours (our sin) only but also for the whole world. What did John say Jesus is the propitiation for our sin, that is clearly the believers sin that has been appeased, yet John says not for ours only that is not for our sin only, that is all that can mean then we see a qualifying statement Jesus didn't become the appeasemnt for just our sin again the first part of the verse makes that very clear, but He became the appeasement for the whole world, that has to mean all of mankind, just as John 3:17 and 18 show. It should be clear, people must believe, you and I are just like everyone born we were born totally depraved, covered unto we came to know right from wrong, but totally and utterly depraved. But we both believed, that is placed our faith and trust in christ through Faith, that Faith was a Faith in our nature, how was placed in our nature? Well Genesis 1:26 "Let us make man in our image" God created man with Faith in him because he created us in his image. Part of that image died at the fall, the spiritual life as we are born spiritually dead. But the Faith is still in the soul of man as part of the image of God. Faith is in each of us to believe because God placed it there at creation. Everyone must act upon that Faith in order to not be condemned but those who believe not are condemned already because they fail to believe.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Cain was punished on earth for murdering his brother. He like all who are going to end up in the Lake of fire are there for 1 reason.

"John 3:
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

This includes Cain the first to believe that not place Faith in Christ. So if God gives Faith then God has condemned them for His not supplying them the Faith to Believe. Yet Jesus said He didn't come to condemn the world that is all mankind, He came to Save All mankind ( the World).
So now the question: If they are condemned because they don't believe on the Son of God as Jesus said, then do you see that this verse reads incorrectly? Should it not say I came to save only those who are given Faith to believe?

For the O.T. people including Cain they were to believe in the Savior who was promised in "Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

The exact thing Cain failed to believe then, do you believe God, that is Christ came not into the world to save the world but that only the chosen were who He came to save. Therefore as 1 John 2:2 states, And He Propitiation is about the misses of us not about the our more yet only but and about whole of the world, again a form of the same term Jesus uses Kosmou. "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only but also for the whole world."
Now let's look at this, He = Jesus id the propitiation=appeasement for our sin: and not for ours (our sin) only but also for the whole world. What did John say Jesus is the propitiation for our sin, that is clearly the believers sin that has been appeased, yet John says not for ours only that is not for our sin only, that is all that can mean then we see a qualifying statement Jesus didn't become the appeasemnt for just our sin again the first part of the verse makes that very clear, but He became the appeasement for the whole world, that has to mean all of mankind, just as John 3:17 and 18 show. It should be clear, people must believe, you and I are just like everyone born we were born totally depraved, covered unto we came to know right from wrong, but totally and utterly depraved. But we both believed, that is placed our faith and trust in christ through Faith, that Faith was a Faith in our nature, how was placed in our nature? Well Genesis 1:26 "Let us make man in our image" God created man with Faith in him because he created us in his image. Part of that image died at the fall, the spiritual life as we are born spiritually dead. But the Faith is still in the soul of man as part of the image of God. Faith is in each of us to believe because God placed it there at creation. Everyone must act upon that Faith in order to not be condemned but those who believe not are condemned already because they fail to believe.

Let's focus on 'faith is based on relationship' as in marriage, okay? I answered you already about Cain, and propitiation is what this thread is about. Let's focus on faith, okay? Deal?

 

[revmwc]

Let's focus on 'faith is based on relationship' as in marriage, okay? I answered you already about Cain, and propitiation is what this thread is about. Let's focus on faith, okay? Deal?

I have been for our faith is on the propitiatory sacrifice of Jesus it is after all interconnected

 

[SovereignGrace]

I have been for our faith is on the propitiatory sacrifice of Jesus it is after all interconnected

I was afraid we'd focus on Cain and God and also propitiation.

But this 'our, my' faith thingy. Anything that resonates from the sinner has been corrupted in the fall. Faith, because we placed our faith(innate faith here) in everything but God. Look at our love we have from birth. It loves everything but God. Even Muslims love their children. The atheists love their families, friends, co-workers, &c. These faculties man kept intact post-fall, but they were corrupted, tainted by, and with sin. To love God, one must be FIRST born of God[see 1 John 4]. Jesus said 'if you love Me, keep my commands.' Even after salvation, the only way we keep these is via our spirit, as He now is our Life. No unregenerate can keep those ten commands, therefore, they can not love God.

Same with faith. Innate faith is tainted by, corrupted with sin, via the fall. All people possess this innate faith. However, there is a huge chasm between us and God. Innate faith can not cross it. Divine faith, God-bestowed faith does.

This divine faith comes from a relationship with God. He instigates our relationship with Him by divine quickening. We then exercise faith(divine, God-bestowed faith here) and repentance(another of God's gifts...see Romans 2:4), and He saves us.

 

[revmwc]

mwc, before we too carried away with talking about Cain, let's focus on 'faith is based upon relationship', okay?

The picture of Christ and His own has many allegorical pictures.
1) Shepherd and Sheep
2) Father and Son
3) Master and slave
4) Husband and bride

I want to focus on # 4 and use Ephesians 5:25 for my example...

"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her."

Our relationship with Christ is as a marriage. When were saved, we're married to Him, marriage certificate in hand, so-to-speak. It is once...at that very moment...we exercise faith, we are married to Him. Prior to this, we had no relationship with Him...or His word...read 1 Corinthians 2:14 & Romans 8:7. We had no relationship with God...or His word...but were His enemy. If faith is based on relationship, none would have been saved. For none sought, or seek, after Him. It is He who instigates our walk with Him.

Carry this over to the example Bro. DHK used with marrying his wife. If it played out the same way, he'd went up and picked out a woman who hated his guts and married her. We hated His guts, yet He came to us, quickened us, gave us faith and repentance and married Him right then and there. Hosea and Gomer paint this beautiful picture of biblical truth.

Well let's take a verse from revmitchel to now answer the question for Ephesians 2:8&9, which states "for by Grace are we saved by faith and that not of ourselves "it" is the gift of God not of works lest any man should boast" Now whar is the "IT" is it Faith or salvation? Here we have the answer from scripture a verse revmitchell posted, Tomans 6:23 states "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." The wages of sin is death now that is clear, Christ went tot he cross in payment for sin, His payment appease God's required wage for sin. But look at the second part, " the gift of God is eternal life." So the "IT" of Ephesians 2:8 & 9 that is the gift of God is the same gift, eternal life that is salvation. Therefore salvation is the gift of Ephesians 2:8&9 and mot Faith. We faith in us in our soul that responds to the gospel. SG I believe called it inate faith, is inate faith just a small amount yet Jesus said in Luke 17:6 "And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you." The smallest FAith can move mountains and the smallest inate Faith is enough to believe on the Lord Jesus Chirst.

 

[Iconoclast]

Salvation is the gift of God. ......all of it..
Saving faith and repentance are graced to the dead sinner who existed as a spiritual corpse.

 

[revmwc]

Galatians 5:2 says a part of the fruit of the Spirit is Faith or Faithfulness as most noted Theologians state it. But we see yet another gift of Faith. Paul dealing with God giving believers gifts not this in
1 Corinthians 12,
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

Notice verse 9 the Spirit is giving some believers the gift of Faith, now this is not Faith for Salvation, but the gift to trust God through all situations in life. Yet a distinction is made here by Paul Some believers receive Faith as a gift not all believers because Paul makes the distinction "To another" not "To ALL". We see a separate gift of faith given after salvation because no gift would be given to an unregenerate person by the Spirit. This distinctly shows some receive a greater measure of Faith than others after salvation.

 

[Bob Hope]

A measure of faith is given to all men. What you do with that faith will determine if you are saved or not.

Many are called few are chosen

 

[revmwc]

We see Acts 2:
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Notice verse 37, " when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart" it would be at this point that those who see faith as a gift and that people are regenerated before faith that it would occur, but what did Peter tell them? Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
But better we see how Romans 10:17 applies to these seen in Acts 2:37 when it states "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Their faith came from withing upon being convicted because heard the word and responded to the drawing of the Holy Spirit. Example upon example that we must believe the Gospel and at the point we believe that place Faith in Christ then we are regenerated not vice versa!

 

[Iconoclast]

False teaching 101.

 

[Internet Theologian]

False teaching 101.

I give it the 'friendly' grade due to the fact you are being quite generous in giving it a high ranking of '101'.

 

[Bob Hope]

I give it the 'friendly' grade due to the fact you are being quite generous in giving it a high ranking of '101'.

It must be that you are just so darn irresistible to God. You claim you this grace Is bestowed upon you. But the Messiah has yet to vouch for you as you are not dead. Those men in Matthew 7 thought they had grace also.

Matthew 7:22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

 

[Internet Theologian]

It must be that you are just so darn irresistible to God. You claim you this grace Is bestowed upon you. But the Messiah has yet to vouch for you as you are not dead. Those men in Matthew 7 thought they had grace also.

Matthew 7:22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Oh look, it's a troll who casts aspersions from the safety of being behind a monitor, calling others lost. What a rarity!!!!!! Laugh

 

[SovereignGrace]

It must be that you are just so darn irresistible to God. You claim you this grace Is bestowed upon you. But the Messiah has yet to vouch for you as you are not dead. Those men in Matthew 7 thought they had grace also.

Matthew 7:22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

The only thing you could offer was your sin(but you could not even do that). That was what Christ bore upon the cross. In reality, He took it, not that you could offer it.

 

[Iconoclast]

It must be that you are just so darn irresistible to God. You claim you this grace Is bestowed upon you. But the Messiah has yet to vouch for you as you are not dead. Those men in Matthew 7 thought they had grace also.

Matthew 7:22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Hello BH,
God saw nothing in us to commend ourselves to Him.
Look at the picture of Ezekiel infant in chapter 16 to get the picture of Christ Jesus setting His love upon ungodly sinners as we are.
To comment as you have indicates a misunderstanding of these truths.
If I misunderstood your intention could you clarify your position at this time?

 

[Bob Hope]

Oh look, it's a troll who casts aspersions from the safety of being behind a monitor, calling others lost. What a rarity!!!!!! Laugh

For a "theologian" you don't read very well. I never said you were lost. We a little sensitive? Are you sure you have your parents permission to use the computer today?