Where does faith come from? 2nd Rodeo

[Bob Hope]

Hello BH,
God saw nothing in us to commend ourselves to Him.
Look at the picture of Ezekiel infant in chapter 17 to get the picture of Christ Jesus setting His love upon ungodly sinners as we are.
To comment as you have indicates a misunderstanding of these truths.
If I misunderstood your intention could you clarify your position at this time?

It is what we do that will decide if we are redeemed. Salvation is not some magical blessing that God sprinkles on some and not others. Our fate, our reward is in our hands.


20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 

[Iconoclast]

It is what we do that will decide if we are redeemed. Salvation is not some magical blessing that God sprinkles on some and not others. Our fate, our reward is in our hands.


20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Some of us have come to understand this differently.
2 Tim 1:9 indicates God had already purposed to correct and redeem a multitude of sinners in Himself.
The only works that can save us is the perfect life,active obedience, and Cross work of the Son.
If we are the objects of His love and mercy....the good works you speak of will be manifest as God works in and through us.

If you are suggesting it is all what we do....on our own, we would be doomed.
By the deeds of the law there will be NO FLESH justified in His sight.

 

[Internet Theologian]

For a "theologian" you don't read very well. I never said you were lost. We a little sensitive? Are you sure you have your parents permission to use the computer today?

Bob,

You questioned salvation, albeit it is a given your wording was partly incoherent, but I got the message.

 

[Bob Hope]

Some of us have come to understand this differently.
2 Tim 1:9 indicates God had already purposed to correct and redeem a multitude of sinners in Himself.
The only works that can save us is the perfect life,active obedience, and Cross work of the Son.
If we are the objects of His love and mercy....the good works you speak of will be manifest as God works in and through us.

If you are suggesting it is all what we do....on our own, we would be doomed.
By the deeds of the law there will be NO FLESH justified in His sight.

It is through us. We are given a chance to choose to be obedient or disobedient. When we choose to follow Christ as mentioned in the verse, Christ will help guide us and teach us the correct path. We are not forced to follow that path. We may put our hand to the plow and we may look back. We must keep the course and we must remain worthy.

 

[Internet Theologian]

It is what we do that will decide if we are redeemed. Salvation is not some magical blessing that God sprinkles on some and not others. Our fate, our reward is in our hands.


20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Bob,

The passage you quote is taken out of context. It is not a Gospel invitation, it is written to the church.

 

[Bob Hope]

Bob,

The passage you quote is taken out of context. It is not a Gospel invitation, it is written to the church.

Its not taken out of context. You just don't understand it.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Its not taken out of context. You just don't understand it.

Bop,

It's been used out of context for so long that many, just as you, believe it is being correctly interpreted and applied.

 

[revmwc]

Its not taken out of context. You just don't understand it.

The Revelation passage about Christ standing at the door knocking is not the door of salvation, it is the door of fellowship. He is saying we are to continually confess our sin as believers in order to sup, fellowship with Him. All who overcome by Grace through faith will reign with Him in His Kingdom.

 

[Bob Hope]

Bop,

It's been used out of context for so long that many, just as you, believe it is being correctly interpreted and applied.

Lets hear it.

 

[Bob Hope]

The Revelation passage about Christ standing at the door knocking is not the door of salvation, it is the door of fellowship. He is saying we are to continually confess our sin as believers in order to sup, fellowship with Him. All who overcome by Grace through faith will reign with Him in His Kingdom.

So when He says "If ANY man will hear my voice" He is just talking about believers? LOL I hope your kidding.

 

[Internet Theologian]

So when He says "If ANY man will hear my voice" He is just talking about believers? LOL I hope your kidding.

Bob,

If a person is addressing a church, as Christ is here, and says 'any' it is referring to any of THEM and applicably, according to Revelation 3:20 specifically, it is to any of his church throughout time. Context.

 

[revmwc]

So when He says "If ANY man will hear my voice" He is just talking about believers? LOL I hope your kidding.

Revelation 3:19-20,19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Christ rebukes those He loves. If you haven’t been rebuked, haven’t been chastened by Christ you need to check up on your salvation and make sure it is by “Grace through Faith”. Christ rebuked them out of love just as He does for all who have truly received Him as their savior. Christ loved their souls hated their sin but loved their souls. They needed only to comply to His rebuke and chastening of them. Turn from their spiritual blindness and nakedness to see the Salvation gift, Christ has for them. Christ is knocking at the door for them. Christ continues to deal with them in Grace. Those who were saved and in Operational death, they must repent and come to Him and He will sup with them... Christ is knocking on the Heart of believers to return to the truth, return to sound doctrine."

He is definitely speaking to the believers who He chastens for following after false doctrine and for walking out of the Operation of the Holy Spirit. They are the ones we see in Ephesian 5:18, "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;"
Those drunk with the sin and with the false doctrines are told to walk not in them but to be filled with the Spirit, those are the ones He is knocking for. For them to come back to the truth and to confess their sin and be controlled by the Spirit, to be Operating under the guidance and direction of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Bob Hope]

Bob,

If a person is addressing a church, as Christ is here, and says 'any' it is referring to any of THEM and applicably, according to Revelation 3:20 specifically, it is to any of his church throughout time. Context.

LOL, that just plain stupid. You dispensationalist will say anything to get out of obedience. The warnings given to the churches in Revelation are universal warnings to all who will listen.


If it was written to churches then why does Christ say this?

11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

 

[Iconoclast]

It is through us. We are given a chance to choose to be obedient or disobedient. When we choose to follow Christ as mentioned in the verse, Christ will help guide us and teach us the correct path. We are not forced to follow that path. We may put our hand to the plow and we may look back. We must keep the course and we must remain worthy.

We are born in a condition of disobedience. God makes His people willing in the day of His power...psalm 110.
In 2 Tim 1:9....notice it was grace given to us, not a choice that is going to be rejected.

 

[Internet Theologian]

LOL, that just plain stupid. You dispensationalist will say anything to get out of obedience. The warnings given to the churches in Revelation are universal warnings to all who will listen.


If it was written to churches then why does Christ say this?

11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Bob,

I'm no dispy am reformed and also am what others call a lordship salvationist. But that just means I believe in true Gospel conversion. Also you may consider looking at passages as either being descriptive or prescriptive when concerning soteriololgy. That would help in not conflating evidence of salvation with earning salvation.

The context of Rev. 22:11 is speaking to all those who are lost compared to those genuinely converted.

 

[percho]

Why?Yes. It is a genitive singular feminine definite article.

διὰ τῆς πίστεως for the faith in the atonement made by Christ (Romans 3:25; Romans 3:30, al.) is, as the apprehending cause of the Messianic salvation, the necessary mediate instrument on the part of man, while the χάρις is the divine motive, the efficient cause of the bestowal of the faith on the lost. The emphasis, however, is retained by τῇ χάριτι alone, and διὰ τῆς πίστ. is only the modal definition to σεσωσμ.

Isn't, "the faith," the cause of the bestowal of, "the grace," and therefore was therefore necessary to have preceded, "the grace"?

Wasn't the grace of God which came through,"the faith," brought forth when this verse became fact? Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Is that not when? Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Is not, being made perfect, Heb 5:9 relative to Jesus being, Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec. Verse 10 relative to Verse's 5,6 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Therefore grace came when it was stated, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. which was the day of the resurrection per Acts 13:33?

Did that take place because of, the faith? Did, the faith precede, the grace? Just any old faith or the faith?

I believe, "the faith," that brought, "the grace," of (the) God was the learned Obedience of the Son Heb 5:8 unto death, even the death of the cross Phil 2:8 Wherefore V9 God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: See Heb 1:4,5 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?


What about my question concerning Eph 2:8 and Titus 3:5 saying the very same thing in two different ways? Could you touch on that?

 

[TCassidy]

Isn't, "the faith," the cause of the bestowal of, "the grace," and therefore was therefore necessary to have preceded, "the grace"?

No. As I said "while the χάρις is the divine motive, the efficient cause of the bestowal of the faith on the lost."

 

[percho]

I was afraid we'd focus on Cain and God and also . propitiation

But this 'our, my' faith thingy. Anything that resonates from the sinner has been corrupted in the fall. Faith, because we placed our faith(innate faith here) in everything but God. Look at our love we have from birth. It loves everything but God. Even Muslims love their children. The atheists love their families, friends, co-workers, &c. These faculties man kept intact post-fall, but they were corrupted, tainted by, and with sin. To love God, one must be FIRST born of God[see 1 John 4]. Jesus said 'if you love Me, keep my commands.' Even after salvation, the only way we keep these is via our spirit, as He now is our Life. No unregenerate can keep those ten commands, therefore, they can not love God.

Same with faith. Innate faith is tainted by, corrupted with sin, via the fall. All people possess this innate faith. However, there is a huge chasm between us and God. Innate faith can not cross it. Divine faith, God-bestowed faith does.

This divine faith comes from a relationship with God. He instigates our relationship with Him by divine quickening. We then exercise faith(divine, God-bestowed faith here) and repentance(another of God's gifts...see Romans 2:4), and He saves us.

Exactly what I am trying to show in my post with TCassidy. All consider.
Before the foundation of the world, before the creation, Jesus was going to be the redeemer, Therefore even at that time Jesus was placed as, propitiation. The place of mercy.

Upon what. The Faith, of God in the blood of the Son of God to be born of woman. God believed his Son born of woman would be obedient unto his belief, his faith. Spoken of Jesus born of the virgin Mary: Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; --- Jesus was in agony in the garden striving for obedience. Said of that Son, born of woman. Verse 9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; ----- Jesus became the obedience of faith, the faith of God the Father.

Gal 3. before the coming of the faith
the faith having come no more

 

[percho]

No. As I said "while the χάρις is the divine motive, the efficient cause of the bestowal of the faith on the lost."

A. Saved
B, Faith
C. Grace

Is there a chronological order to those three if so what?

 

[percho]

I asked concerning Eph 2:8 and Titus 3:5. Here is what I think and believe.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

From Titus 3:5

According to mercy = the faith see post 78
Saved = saved
Grace = regeneration and renewing of Holy Spirit see post 78 Jesus my friends was raised from the dead. If that is not re generated what is? Acts 2:33 having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit