Where does faith come from? 2nd Rodeo

[BrotherJoseph]

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Who are those who labor and are heavy laden?.

Again this does not say salvation is "available" to all like it is an offer. When God calls His sheep to come to Him it is a call and it cannot be resisted, "...and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice." (John 10:3-4) Also, not all men are "heavy laden", therefore you are incorrect in your assumption that this is a command or even an invintation to all men indiscriminately to come, this call is only the burdened sinner whom the Holy Ghost has convicted of their sin and they know they have no hope and stand guilty outside of the merits of Christ. Most in the world do not have such a state of mind, thus those are not the ones he is calling to "Come unto me". This is what Jesus meant when He said, "for I am not come to call the righteous (HERE IT MEANS SELF RIGHTEOUS), but sinners to repentance." (Matthew 9:13). Jesus is explicit here saying His call is not to all men.

matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Little children are to come unto Him. How many ALL!.

By "little children" Jesus means those that have the faith like a little child who believes all things, not all men who are by nature skeptics and unbelievers. He cannot mean here literal little children because the verse immediately after He says to let the "little children" come in Luke's gospel he qualifies what He says by declaring, "17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein." (Luke 18:17), if He in the verse means literally a physical "little child" as you contend this would mean nobody could be saved as an adult as He said if you do not "receive" the Kingdom...as a little child" you cannot enter in.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me..

Again, when Jesus says they shall "all be taught of God" He cannot be meaning every single human being because He says the result of being taught of God is "Every man therefore that hath...Learned of the Father, cometh unto me", , but as we know not all people come "unto" Him, therefore this verse cannot be referring to every human being.

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
All mankind thirst they can all come to him.

Only those who are thirsty come to drink and every man I have ever known when thirsty if drink is available will drink,rather than thirst to death, but the fact is that not every man comes to Christ to drink, therefore this proves not every man is thirsty, therefore "If any man thirst, let him come unto me" is again a limited call only to sinners who thirst for a refuge and redemption from their sin.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

I do not see an "offer" of salvation in the scripture you quoted above. What is the noun being offered and what verse is it in? I see commands in those verses given by Jesus to the disciples to "Go ye therefore...baptizing...teaching", but not an offer, tell me where the offer is in those verses?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

No one is not saved until the judgement..

Our final salvation is the redemption of our body at the resurrection, but people are legally "saved" during time in the present through Christ by grace and scripture makes this clear, "(by grace ye are saved)" Ephesians 2:5, also, "Who hath saved us (PAST TENSE), and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began" (2 Timothy 1:9)

 

[BrotherJoseph]

The funny thing about your statement is that my "profound misunderstanding" fits perfectly with every word spoken by the Messiah. It's so simple. It's a message of "be good" and stay away from evil..

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." (Mark 10:18)

As He told the Pharisees, if they wanted to be the sons of Abraham they needed to do the works of Abraham..

You have just conditioned being a child of God on works that need to be performed, how do you reconcile this with the clear teaching of scripture,"4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Romans 4:4-5)

Works follow as a sure evidence of one having salvation not a condition to salvation.

 

[Internet Theologian]

The funny thing about your statement is that my "profound misunderstanding" fits perfectly with every word spoken by the Messiah. It's so simple. It's a message of "be good" and stay away from evil.

Hi Bob,

The above is more verbiage showing you simply do not understand the Gospel message at all. This is also conveyed in what you state below:

As He told the Pharisees, if they wanted to be the sons of Abraham they needed to do the works of Abraham.

The 'works of Abraham' is seen in the fact he had faith, which is evidence of conversion. The context of John 8 from where you make a perfunctory conclusion is that these whom Jesus spake thought they were righteous by doing what the law stated. You're preaching their same false gospel here. Part of the problem is you conflate evidence of salvation with working for salvation, and make descriptive passages prescriptive passages.

You have been deceived into thinking that salvation is some deep overwhelming thought bestowed upon you for no apparent reason.

Not so my friend. Salvation was granted me, as was faith, by the grace of God, concerning nothing good in myself. It is a free gift and its evidence is in the continuing abiding in the faith; 2 John 1:1ff; 1 Corinthians 15:2; Colossians 1:23, the ongoing sanctification; Hebrews 12:14; 1 John 1:1-5:21, 1 Peter 1:1ff, and belief and adherence to the Word of God, 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 2:1, 13ff, John 8:31, John 15:7. There is also now the deep loathing of personal sin, Romans 7:18ff, 1 Timothy 1:15; the inner working on the will to desire and will to do what is pleasing to God; Philippians 2:13, and there is the transforming power of God within, 2 Corinthians 3:18ff; Romans 12:1ff. Then there is also the disciplining from the Father; Hebrews 12:3-11.

That God saw you and not others and just decided to save you.

All who are regenerated glory and stand in awe of God's sovereign electing grace.

That you had no chance to say no but where driven to obey and are now kept safe of nothing of yourself. Spend some time reading through the gospels and hopefully you will see it.

God gives eyes to see and ears to hear. Bob, you clearly misunderstand the gospel, but not only that you show grievous disdain for the doctrines of grace.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Hi Bob.



You and no one else can 'do it' so you've missed His point.




You'll never make it if it is between you and Him to get you there. Bob you have a profound misunderstanding of the Gospel, your verbiage reflects this.

I call that 'Bob the Builder' theology. "Can we do it? Yes we can!!!"

 

[Internet Theologian]

I call that 'Bob the Builder' theology. "Can we do it? Yes we can!!!"

Bob needs to place his 'Hope' in Jesus blood and righteousness, and nothing in self.

 

[Bob Hope]

All of you need to spend some time reading Matthew 25. All these people were judged by WHAT they did. I have already given ample verses showing that we are all judge by our works, not our faith.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Works are the outpouring of who we are serving.

 

[Internet Theologian]

All of you need to spend some time reading Matthew 25. All these people were judged by WHAT they did. I have already given ample verses showing that we are all judge by our works, not our faith.

Hi Bob,

We know what it means, not just what it says.

They were judged by their works, not saved by their works. The fruit of works is evidence of salvation, not the cause. Works are then evidence of true faith; James 2:14-26.

 

[Bob Hope]

Hi Bob,

We know what it means, not just what it says.

They were judged by their works, not saved by their works. The fruit of works is evidence of salvation, not the cause. Works are then evidence of true faith; James 2:14-26.

Tell yourself whatever makes you feel better. You are weighed by your actions not your thoughts. James makes this very clear.

 

[Bob Hope]

Hi Bob,

We know what it means, not just what it says.

They were judged by their works, not saved by their works. The fruit of works is evidence of salvation, not the cause. Works are then evidence of true faith; James 2:14-26.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.


And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.


And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.



We are not saved by our faith. We are saved if we bring forth fruit meet for repentance. We are saved if our works prove the faith we claim.

 

[DHK]

What relationship(communion) does Light(Christ) have with darkness(unregenerate)?

It was stated on here that faith is based upon relationship...and that is the driving force of the OP. Now, unregenerate peoples have no relationship(communion) with God. How does the unregenerate have faith in God when it takes relationship to have faith?

"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God."

If you see a person who says he is need of money because he is hungry, and you are walking by. Perhaps you will stop and assess his situation.
If you simply give him money, IMO, you are foolish.
You first need to develop a relationship with him (not a great relationship or lifelong) but enough to assess that he is truly in need of food, or that he simply wants money to spend on booze or drugs. If it is the latter, hopefully you will walk on by and not waste your money. If the former you may want to buy him a good meal or give him some money to do so. You, at least develop enough of a relationship to assess the true situation.

The same is true with an unsaved person is unfamiliar with the gospel. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. He must first hear the gospel. He must be able to assess its value as it relates to him. Is it true? Will it do what it claims? Are the claims of Christ true?
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The more he hears the Word the more confidence he will have that this is the true message of God.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
--This is not just any book we are using. It is a living book. The Holy Spirit works through the Word to bring a person to Christ.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

[Bob Hope]

"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God."

If you see a person who says he is need of money because he is hungry, and you are walking by. Perhaps you will stop and assess his situation.
If you simply give him money, IMO, you are foolish.
You first need to develop a relationship with him (not a great relationship or lifelong) but enough to assess that he is truly in need of food, or that he simply wants money to spend on booze or drugs. If it is the latter, hopefully you will walk on by and not waste your money. If the former you may want to buy him a good meal or give him some money to do so. You, at least develop enough of a relationship to assess the true situation.

The same is true with an unsaved person is unfamiliar with the gospel. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. He must first hear the gospel. He must be able to assess its value as it relates to him. Is it true? Will it do what it claims? Are the claims of Christ true?
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The more he hears the Word the more confidence he will have that this is the true message of God.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
--This is not just any book we are using. It is a living book. The Holy Spirit works through the Word to bring a person to Christ.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Is this taking about scripture or the Son of God?

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


It seems as there is a movement to classify scripture as being the same as and equal to the Messiah. The man made collection of ancient scriptures do not know what my thoughts are. But the Messiah does.

 

[SovereignGrace]

"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God."

Don't disagree. The word brings with it faith...ergo...an external...not innate source.

If you see a person who says he is need of money because he is hungry, and you are walking by. Perhaps you will stop and assess his situation.
If you simply give him money, IMO, you are foolish.

Oui.

You first need to develop a relationship with him (not a great relationship or lifelong) but enough to assess that he is truly in need of food, or that he simply wants money to spend on booze or drugs. If it is the latter, hopefully you will walk on by and not waste your money. If the former you may want to buy him a good meal or give him some money to do so. You, at least develop enough of a relationship to assess the true situation.

No. I would not give him money. I would feed him unto he 'popped' if he wanted to. Even buy him a coat if he was cold. But all of this assessing comes from external sources. You are equating faith with your eyes. We walk by faith, not by eyes, with what we see. Again, if this scenario, if it carries over to conversion, people have faith, yet they have no relationship with God until they exercise faith. Another horse in front of cart scenario.

The same is true with an unsaved person is unfamiliar with the gospel.

I was 'familiar' with the gospel for YEARS before He saved me. But 'familiarity' does not a relationship make.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

I have no idea why you keep quoting this. I do not disagree.

He must first hear the gospel.

Oui.

He must be able to assess its value as it relates to him.

All I see is 'he', 'he', 'he'. It's 'He', not 'he', mon frere.

Is it true? Will it do what it claims? Are the claims of Christ true? Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The more he hears the Word the more confidence he will have that this is the true message of God.

And you are STILL missing my point. Salvation is a picture of marriage. Any true relationship with Him is like a marriage. The relationship we have with God is inagurated by God and not us. What you are saying is we go out on dates with God and then we get married. That's not a biblical picture of salvation.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
--This is not just any book we are using. It is a living book. The Holy Spirit works through the Word to bring a person to Christ.

Oui.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Let me try to be as concise as possible. In our marriage, I dated my wife for about a month before I knew she was the one. We dated a hair over two years and have been married almost 11 years. It was my innate faith that caused me to trust her that she was the one for me. Now, if something happened and she'd leave me, my faith would be crushed. Not so with God. I know beyond a shadow of doubt He will do for me everything He has promised according to His word. I had no faith in Him because I had no relationship with Him.

In you marriage, your faith(innate) was strengthened when you dated her and THEN you married her. You, in your relationship with God, trusted Him exactly at the same time you were married to Him(you had no faith in God because you had no relationship with Him until you were united to Him in Christ). If your example rang true, you'd have met your wife for the very first time, trusted her and married her right then and there.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Is this taking about scripture or the Son of God?

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


It seems as there is a movement to classify scripture as being the same as and equal to the Messiah. The man made collection of ancient scriptures do not know what my thoughts are. But the Messiah does.

You are off the deep end now. The scriptures are the very words that testify of Christ of what He has done, is doing now, and will do later. And yes, this ancient collection of scriptures do not know your thoughts, because they are foreign to it.

 

[SovereignGrace]

You are off the deep end now. The scriptures are the very words that testify of Christ of what He has done, is doing now, and will do later. And yes, this ancient collection of scriptures do not know your thoughts, because they are foreign to it.

Every post of mine you 'dumb' BH makes my position that much stronger. Trust me, I would be scared if you agreed with me. Now 'dumb' this post. You have been reported for you heretical views.

 

[Bob Hope]

You are off the deep end now. The scriptures are the very words that testify of Christ of what He has done, is doing now, and will do later. And yes, this ancient collection of scriptures do not know your thoughts, because they are foreign to it.

The reference is clearly talking about the Messiah. The scriptures are filled with errors. Only those led by the Spirit can discern them. Scripture is just a way for God to convey truth. That's it. You are getting into the magic pink goggles camp with your mystic take on the bible. It was assemble by a murdering

You are off the deep end now. The scriptures are the very words that testify of Christ of what He has done, is doing now, and will do later. And yes, this ancient collection of scriptures do not know your thoughts, because they are foreign to it.

The reference is clearly taking about the Messiah. The scriptures are filled with errors. Only those led by the Spirit can discern truth. Perfect scriptures are not needed. If we had perfect scriptures it wouldn't matter because if men are not led of the Spirit they will never understand them. You are getting into the magic pink goggle camp with your goofy take on the bible. It was assembled by a murdering homosexual with an agenda.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The reference is clearly talking about the Messiah. The scriptures are filled with errors. Only those led by the Spirit can discern them. Scripture is just a way for God to convey truth. That's it. You are getting into the magic pink goggles camp with your mystic take on the bible. It was assemble by a murdering



The reference is clearly taking about the Messiah. The scriptures are filled with errors. Only those led by the Spirit can discern truth. Perfect scriptures are not needed. If we had perfect scriptures it wouldn't matter because if men are not led of the Spirit they will never understand them. You are getting into the magic pink goggle camp with your goofy take on the bible. It was assembled by a murdering homosexual with an agenda.

Time for you to say 'buh-bye'!!!

 

[Bob Hope]

Time for you to say 'buh-bye'!!!

I remember when I was brain washed with the same opinions as you. God had to lead me on some crazy detours before I was able to see. I challenge you to ask him for truth.