Where does faith come from? 2nd Rodeo

[DHK]

Is this taking about scripture or the Son of God?

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

It seems as there is a movement to classify scripture as being the same as and equal to the Messiah. The man made collection of ancient scriptures do not know what my thoughts are. But the Messiah does.

It is speaking of Scripture of course. It plainly says "For the Word of God is..."
It is what it says it is. No need to allegorize or make the statement figurative of something else. Take it literally.

Compare scripture with scripture:
Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

 

[Bob Hope]

How do you know this is not chocked full of error? Jesus could have said 'SIKE!!!' and John erroneously forgot to write it.

The Holy Spirt revealed it to me. You would Have made a great Mormon.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I didn't say the truth of salvation is not in scripture.

How do you know ANYTHING, especially salvation, is in scripture? Remember, per you, it is full of errors.

 

[DHK]

No. I would not give him money. I would feed him unto he 'popped' if he wanted to. Even buy him a coat if he was cold. But all of this assessing comes from external sources. You are equating faith with your eyes. We walk by faith, not by eyes, with what we see. Again, if this scenario, if it carries over to conversion, people have faith, yet they have no relationship with God until they exercise faith. Another horse in front of cart scenario.

Faith is simple confidence in the word of another. You can trust the words of that person's need or you can trust the words of God. It is the "words" that is the message, that you are trusting.
Faith is "confidence."

1 John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:

I was 'familiar' with the gospel for YEARS before He saved me. But 'familiarity' does not a relationship make.

Perhaps that is the problem. You grew up in a privileged home. What if you grew up in a Muslim home and never had heard the gospel at all? Then you would need to have "confidence" in the message, the person, the promise, the author, etc.
Thus faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. It is not this little magical or mystical ball that God comes and places in your heart. It is the confidence that one gains by listening to the Word of God.
When Lydia's heart was "opened" did God take a key and magically open it, or did she believe because she was convicted by the Holy Spirit all the while hearing the Word of God, by which she gained faith in the message of God?

I have no idea why you keep quoting this. I do not disagree.

Because God did not give Lyida the faith to believe. But rather her faith came from the Word that she was listening to. This is a straightforward statement from the Word. Your belief is not substantiated from the Bible, it is only inferred by a few verses taken out of context.

All I see is 'he', 'he', 'he'. It's 'He', not 'he', mon frere.

What pronoun do you prefer: he, she, it, one, a person, etc. I chose "he," meaning "a person," any person."

And you are STILL missing my point. Salvation is a picture of marriage. Any true relationship with Him is like a marriage. The relationship we have with God is inagurated by God and not us. What you are saying is we go out on dates with God and then we get married. That's not a biblical picture of salvation.

There are many illustrations here and all are inadequate.
Like, you (we) are still part of the bride and the marriage hasn't taken place yet.
It may have been inaugurated by God in some way (not your way), but the person was not forced to be a part of the bride, he (she) still, out of his own free will still had to say yes. My wife did.

Let me try to be as concise as possible. In our marriage, I dated my wife for about a month before I knew she was the one. We dated a hair over two years and have been married almost 11 years. It was my innate faith that caused me to trust her that she was the one for me. Now, if something happened and she'd leave me, my faith would be crushed. Not so with God. I know beyond a shadow of doubt He will do for me everything He has promised according to His word. I had no faith in Him because I had no relationship with Him.

We are humans. If something in our marriage goes wrong it is because we are frail human beings and we still live with a fallen nature. We aren't perfect.
But God is always perfect and his promises never faith. You have faith in your wife, and your wife may fail. It is not your faith that fails, but your wife. You have faith in God, but God cannot and will not fail. It is not our faith, but rather the object of our faith that is important.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

In you marriage, your faith(innate) was strengthened when you dated her and THEN you married her. You, in your relationship with God, trusted Him exactly at the same time you were married to Him(you had no faith in God because you had no relationship with Him until you were united to Him in Christ). If your example rang true, you'd have met your wife for the very first time, trusted her and married her right then and there.

I had to have a relationship of some kind through the Word first. If I was not confident of the message of Christ through the Word I could not be saved.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

 

[SovereignGrace]

DHK...let me ask you these questions...

1) Did you marry your wife as soon as you trusted her?
2) Were you her enemy when you first met her?

I agree all similies we use to express a biblical truth fall short. But, we were God's enemy when He saved us. The very moment we placed faith in Him, we were saved.

So, if faith comes from relationship, then no one would be saved. Because we were all born outside Christ, having no relationship with God. So faith comes from relationship, as God instigates it via regeneration, then saving faith and repentance happens at the same exact time.

 

[Bob Hope]

How do you know ANYTHING, especially salvation, is in scripture? Remember, per you, it is full of errors.

God reveals truth to those who seek it. Despite my view on scriptures, I still managed to trust in and obey Messiah. All my children have amazing faith and love for God also. They are all taught this fact of scripture. They have no issue trusting in Christ. And their faith will not be shaken to hear scriptures are not perfect.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Perhaps that is the problem. You grew up in a privileged home.

I don't know about that. We were taught about God, but my parents were not christians as I was growing up. I was in my late-20's when dad and mom were saved.

What if you grew up in a Muslim home and never had heard the gospel at all? Then you would need to have "confidence" in the message, the person, the promise, the author, etc.

I take great comfort in the fact that not one person who Christ has redeemed will die lost. God will save all them the Son redeemed by His blood. He does this via the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Thus faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

Why the need to repeat this? I have told you numerous times I agree with this. The Word brings faith, which is an External...not innate...source. This Source is God.

It is not this little magical or mystical ball that God comes and places in your heart.

I wish you would quit posting this nonsense, mon frere. It's not a 'little magical or mystical ball' but is a supernatural exchange between God an an unregenerate sinner. Our sins were imputed unto Christ, who atoned for them via His shed blood upon the cross of Golgotha. When we were saved, His righteousness was imputed unto us. The faith we expressed to God was that which Christ had towards His Father. His life, faith, righteousness, was imputed to us.

It is the confidence that one gains by listening to the Word of God.

This opens an Pandora's box in your theology, Monsieur. When 100 unregenerate people hear the same gospel message, with all things being equal, you should get the exact same respinse, as BrotherJoseph already pointed out. Now, say some are saved via that message. Why were they saved and the other ones weren't. Those who were saved, were they...
1) smarter?
2) had a keener perception?
3) were their hearts less hardened?
4) were they better listeners?

Surely there was something in them that made them receptive to the gospel, right?

Now, I know you'll say there are reasons why some receive it by their free will(though they are satan's slave pre-salvation), and others used their free will to reject it. In other words, youdon't really know why some accept and others don't.

Now, I know why those saved were saved. God regenearted them, gave them ears to hear with, a new heart and Spirit, faith and repentance to be saved. All this via the gospel. Don't want to be accused of being anti-sola fide. And you'll come back accusing me of pouring my doctrine into this.

When Lydia's heart was "opened" did God take a key and magically open it,

This is called divine quickening, the imputation of faith, repentance, and then salvation.

or did she believe because she was convicted by the Holy Spirit all the while hearing the Word of God, by which she gained faith in the message of God?

After He opened her heartl she then believed, took confidence in the gospel of Christ Jesus. She had no relationship with God prior to God inaugurated it. She had no saving faith(not innate) in God, not having a relationship with Him.

Because God did not give Lyida the faith to believe. But rather her faith came from the Word that she was listening to.

He opened her heart to receive it. See Ezekiel 11:19 & Ezekiel 36:26 for example.

Plus, the Word brought with it faith. That shows(AGAIN) clear as the noon day sun that saving faith...not innate faith...is an External source...this source being God.

 

[DHK]

DHK...let me ask you these questions...

1) Did you marry your wife as soon as you trusted her?
2) Were you her enemy when you first met her?

Trust has to be earned. I got to know her slowly.
That is true of the Bible message as well. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
How many people do you hear of that respond to the gospel the very first time they hear it. Probably about as many as marry their spouse the very first time they meet each other.

I agree all similies we use to express a biblical truth fall short. But, we were God's enemy when He saved us. The very moment we placed faith in Him, we were saved.

This is where the Cal and non-Cal differs. It is sin that separates us from God and sin that makes us the enemy. It estranges us from God but does not make us so dead that we are a corpse. It makes our spirit inoperable, not completely lifeless. It needs to be reconciled to God through an ambassador such as yourself, who has been given the ministry of reconciliation (2Cor.5:18ff).
BTW, even the believer is called the enemy of God in James 4:4:

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

So, if faith comes from relationship, then no one would be saved. Because we were all born outside Christ, having no relationship with God. So faith comes from relationship, as God instigates it via regeneration, then saving faith and repentance happens at the same exact time.

One doesn't find the term "saving faith" in the Bible. Faith is faith. And yes, faith and repentance happen at the same time. They are two sides of the same coin. If I put my faith in Christ as Lord, then as my Lord, I am his servant and obviously I have repented from being a servant of the world and the devil, and made Christ as Lord instead. It is a change of mind which repentance is. It happens at the same time.

 

[SovereignGrace]

How many people do you hear of that respond to the gospel the very first time they hear it.

Those that don't respond are deafened, dull of hearing, heart corrupted by sin.

This is where the Cal and non-Cal differs. It is sin that separates us from God and sin that makes us the enemy.

No disagreement here.

It estranges us from God but does not make us so dead that we are a corpse.

Nekros. You're supposed to be a literalist. What gives here?

It makes our spirit inoperable, not completely lifeless.

Adam was separated from the Tree of Life(symbolic of Christ). Sin broke communion with God, and subsequently, the Tree of Life. The Tree of Life was Adam's life source. Jesus Christ(our Tree of Life)...see John 6 & John 15. The soul is dead in transgrssions and sins, void of the fruit of Jesus Christ(our soul's Life Source).

It needs to be reconciled to God through an ambassador such as yourself, who has been given the ministry of reconciliation (2Cor.5:18ff).

Agree.

BTW, even the believer is called the enemy of God in James 4:4:

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

This is James warning them, but true converts are never an enemy of God. These warnings are akin to the warnings those who hold to a fall from grace use. They think those warnings can be reality, but we both know God loses none He saves. We can not be God's sheep and an enemy at the exact same time.

One doesn't find the term "saving faith" in the Bible.

One does not find the word 'rapture' in the bible, either.

Faith is faith.

Uhhhh....no. There's innate and divine faith.

And yes, faith and repentance happen at the same time. They are two sides of the same coin.

Agreed.

If I put my faith in Christ as Lord, then as my Lord, I am his servant and obviously I have repented from being a servant of the world and the devil, and made Christ as Lord instead. It is a change of mind which repentance is. It happens at the same time.

Actually, a change of the heart is what brings a change in the mind. Salvation starts in the heart.

 

[DHK]

I don't know about that. We were taught about God, but my parents were not christians as I was growing up. I was in my late-20's when dad and mom were saved.

But you live in a nation where the gospel can hardly be avoided.

I take great comfort in the fact that not one person who Christ has redeemed will die lost. God will save all them the Son redeemed by His blood. He does this via the gospel of Jesus Christ.

That was not my point, and indeed you just dismissed it completely.

Why the need to repeat this? I have told you numerous times I agree with this. The Word brings faith, which is an External...not innate...source. This Source is God.

I keep repeating it because it is not getting through. The Bible clearly says in Rom.10:17 that the source is the Word of God. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Nowhere does it say that God is the source. The source for that belief is Calvin, not the Bible.

I wish you would quit posting this nonsense, mon frere. It's not a 'little magical or mystical ball' but is a supernatural exchange between God an an unregenerate sinner. Our sins were imputed unto Christ, who atoned for them via His shed blood upon the cross of Golgotha. When we were saved, His righteousness was imputed unto us

OK. So far so good.

. The faith we expressed to God was that which Christ had towards His Father. His life, faith, righteousness, was imputed to us.

And nowhere in the Word does it say that God imputed faith to the believer. Righteousness, yes; faith no. "The Faith," yes. but not "faith" as in trust or confidence.

This opens an Pandora's box in your theology, Monsieur. When 100 unregenerate people hear the same gospel message, with all things being equal, you should get the exact same respinse, as BrotherJoseph already pointed out. Now, say some are saved via that message. Why were they saved and the other ones weren't. Those who were saved, were they...
1) smarter?
2) had a keener perception?
3) were their hearts less hardened?
4) were they better listeners?

Surely there was something in them that made them receptive to the gospel, right?

The definition of blasphemy in its simplest form is "to insult God." I believe your question is an insult to God. Why? Because Jesus himself asked the same question and never gave an answer or told us the reason why.

Consider: Ten lepers came to Jesus. Jesus healed all ten. But only one came back to give thanks and worship him. Only one believed He was the Messiah and was saved.
Jesus answered: "Where are the nine"? It is the same question you are asking. What about the others that did not come back, that did not get saved, that did not respond as this one did. And he was a Samaritan, whereas the others were Jews and had much more exposure to the Word of God.
Where are the nine!!
It is the same question you are asking. Jesus doesn't say or doesn't explain why they didn't come back to give thanks or worship him. And yet you want me to answer a question that Jesus didn't answer??
That either is insulting (blasphemous) or overly arrogant.

Now, I know you'll say there are reasons why some receive it by their free will(though they are satan's slave pre-salvation), and others used their free will to reject it. In other words, youdon't really know why some accept and others don't.

Either Jesus in his humanity didn't know, or didn't tell. But you want me to tell you.

Now, I know why those saved were saved. God regenearted them, gave them ears to hear with, a new heart and Spirit, faith and repentance to be saved. All this via the gospel. Don't want to be accused of being anti-sola fide. And you'll come back accusing me of pouring my doctrine into this.

No, not your doctrine; Calvin's maybe, but not yours. .
Why didn't the nine return? Do you have that answer also?

This is called divine quickening, the imputation of faith, repentance, and then salvation.

Nowhere does it say God "imputes faith". Where is the Biblical evidence for that?

After He opened her heartl she then believed, took confidence in the gospel of Christ Jesus. She had no relationship with God prior to God inaugurated it. She had no saving faith(not innate) in God, not having a relationship with Him.

Let's not read somebody else's theology into this, but only what is stated.
The ministry of the Holy Spirit is given in John 16:8-11. Thus it is God the Holy Spirit that opens her heart as he convicts of sin.
Faith is faith. God does not differentiate between saving faith and innate faith. Many times Jesus said "according to your faith so be it." In fact he emphasize a person's faith, never referring to his own faith when healing others.

He opened her heart to receive it. See Ezekiel 11:19 & Ezekiel 36:26 for example.

Plus, the Word brought with it faith. That shows(AGAIN) clear as the noon day sun that saving faith...not innate faith...is an External source...this source being God.

The Word is the source of faith, not God directly.
Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
Not, Believe with God's faith on the Lord...

 

[SovereignGrace]

But you live in a nation where the gospel can hardly be avoided.

True.

That was not my point, and indeed you just dismissed it completely.

Oh, I knew your point and was not dismissing it in the least. I was broadening it, expanding upon it. If their are His sheep who are Muslim at this time, before they meet Him at the last trump, they will be converted. You can take that to the bank, Monsieur.

I keep repeating it because it is not getting through. The Bible clearly says in Rom.10:17 that the source is the Word of God. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Nowhere does it say that God is the source. The source for that belief is Calvin, not the Bible.

And for the umpteenth time, I agree with you. The word of God is the source of our faith is something I do not disagree with. Why? God works via the gospel, via His word, whether it is preached to the unregenerate or is witnessed to them. The words are verbally spoken and they then bring with them faith. This is heard by the natural man's ears, and unless God acts upon that unregenerate, it will never go any further. But when the message is spoken and God gives them ears to hear with, a new heart and spirit, eyes to see with, then the word comes in and takes up root in their heart.

OK. So far so good.

Hallelujah.

And nowhere in the Word does it say that God imputed faith to the believer. Righteousness, yes; faith no. "The Faith," yes. but not "faith" as in trust or confidence.

The gift is the whole package deal, which includes faith, repentance AND salvation. Every whit of it comes from God. It's not a mixture of God's powers and man's, but all of God's regenerative power.

The definition of blasphemy in its simplest form is "to insult God." I believe your question is an insult to God. Why? Because Jesus himself asked the same question and never gave an answer or told us the reason why.

Oh no. That is not an insult to Him, Monsieur. Please do not start your antics again...please.

Consider: Ten lepers came to Jesus. Jesus healed all ten. But only one came back to give thanks and worship him. Only one believed He was the Messiah and was saved.
Jesus answered: "Where are the nine"? It is the same question you are asking. What about the others that did not come back, that did not get saved, that did not respond as this one did. And he was a Samaritan, whereas the others were Jews and had much more exposure to the Word of God.
Where are the nine!!
It is the same question you are asking. Jesus doesn't say or doesn't explain why they didn't come back to give thanks or worship him. And yet you want me to answer a question that Jesus didn't answer??
That either is insulting (blasphemous) or overly arrogant.

The hypostatic union, mon frère. Jesus was just as much man as God. He even said He did not even know when the hour of His return was. People had desire to be healed of their illnesses, I do not deny this in the least. Yet, that was a fleshly desire. Those who saw Jesus for who He really was/is were the ones saved. These were the ones who were healed mind, body and soul.

Either Jesus in his humanity didn't know, or didn't tell. But you want me to tell you.

Ooooookaaaaayyyyy....

No, not your doctrine; Calvin's maybe, but not yours. .
Why didn't the nine return? Do you have that answer also?

Any that were no saved were not His to begin with. There, I answered you rather easily.

Nowhere does it say God "imputes faith". Where is the Biblical evidence for that?

Done answered.

Let's not read somebody else's theology into this, but only what is stated.

You read free will into everything that has to do with soteriology, Monsieur.

The ministry of the Holy Spirit is given in John 16:8-11. Thus it is God the Holy Spirit that opens her heart as he convicts of sin.

No disagreement from me here.

Faith is faith.

Non.

God does not differentiate between saving faith and innate faith.

Faith from Him and faith innate are polar opposites. You bet your sweet bippy God does differeniate from the two.

Many times Jesus said "according to your faith so be it." In fact he emphasize a person's faith, never referring to his own faith when healing others.

Once faith is given, it is theirs.

The Word is the source of faith, not God directly.

All of it, the word, grace, faith, repentance, salvation and finally glorification comes directly from God.

Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

Amen!

Not, Believe with God's faith on the Lord...

Again, grace is not the only thing He bestows unto the unregenerate and expects them to take up the slack.

 

[Internet Theologian]

The Word is the source of faith, not God directly.
Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
Not, Believe with God's faith on the Lord...

God gave us our hearts and minds too. Does that mean we have God's heart and mind? 'Believe in me with all My heart, soul, mind, strength'?

'The Word is the source of faith, not God directly'? What twisted logic, in fact it is a formal fallacy.

God has spoken the Word, which is His Word, proceeding from Him, and is all truth, and from whence faith is given, yet faith is not from God directly? Wow!!!! Talk about missing the forest for the trees! It's like denying that the worlds and all creatures actually came from God Himself, and, that these only came from His Word which He used to create them. That's senseless and utterly ridiculous and it is the same logic you are arguing.

The Word is directly from God yet you attempt to draw a false dichotomy between what He has spoken and who He is. Ridiculous.

 

[SovereignGrace]

God gave us our hearts and minds too. Does that mean we have God's heart and mind? 'Believe in me with all My heart, soul, mind, strength'?

'The Word is the source of faith, not God directly'? What twisted logic, in fact it is a formal fallacy.

God has spoken the Word, which is His Word, proceeding from Him, and is all truth, and from whence faith is given, yet faith is not from God directly? Wow!!!! Talk about missing the forest for the trees! It's like denying that the worlds and all creatures actually came from God Himself, it only came from His Word which He used to created them. That's senseless and utterly ridiculous and it is the same logic you are arguing.

The Word is directly from God yet you attempt to draw a false dichotomy between what He has spoken and who He is. Ridiculous.

This is one of the best postings I have read on any forum. Kudos Monsieur.

 

[DHK]

Oh, I knew your point and was not dismissing it in the least. I was broadening it, expanding upon it. If their are His sheep who are Muslim at this time, before they meet Him at the last trump, they will be converted. You can take that to the bank, Monsieur.

Are you sure about that? This was Paul's complaint:
Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
--This is the essence of a question you asked previously. Has everyone heard?
Perhaps those that haven't heard, will die and go to hell because you did not go as God's ambassador and tell them of this great message, and then their blood will be upon your hands. Is that a possibility? I don't know. I know that I have met many in my travels who have regretted going to the mission field when long ago they felt God's call to go, but didn't (that is what I am actually referring to). I also realize that it is true for many if not all of us that there are times when the Holy Spirit speaks to our heart and says go speak to that person (on a bus, waiting for a bus, in a mall, restaurant, store, etc.), and we neglect the opportunity, and later feel guilty about it. ("I should have spoken to that person"). Will we be held accountable in some way at the Judgement Seat of Christ? Will their blood be upon our hands?
I don't believe things are so hard and fast as you make them to be. I believe that God has given his people greater accountability to get the gospel out. Their salvation is in our hands. That is an awesome and terrible thought.

When the Lord ascended into heaven he left the 11 with a Great Commission of evangelizing the world. He had no back up plan. What if they had failed? Praise God they didn't.

And for the umpteenth time, I agree with you. The word of God is the source of our faith is something I do not disagree with. Why? God works via the gospel, via His word, whether it is preached to the unregenerate or is witnessed to them. The words are verbally spoken and they then bring with them faith. This is heard by the natural man's ears, and unless God acts upon that unregenerate, it will never go any further. But when the message is spoken and God gives them ears to hear with, a new heart and spirit, eyes to see with, then the word comes in and takes up root in their heart.

That is close. God works through the Gospel from which comes faith. Thus his ears are opened. Then you say it won't go any further unless God acts... I believe it is the Holy Spirit that acts through convicting the person of sin (John 16:8-11), not in God giving the person faith. It seems to be a slight difference but perhaps an important one. I can back this up with Scripture but I don't see the imputation of faith in the Scripture. Either way the person is convicted of his sin and is saved--the Holy Spirit working in and through the Word of God.

The gift is the whole package deal, which includes faith, repentance AND salvation. Every whit of it comes from God. It's not a mixture of God's powers and man's, but all of God's regenerative power.

Salvation/regeneration are simultaneous. But the gospel must be preached first and then it must be assimilated and understood so that one can accept it by faith. Regeneration/salvation are a consequence of that. Believe on the Lord Jesus, and (then) thou shalt be saved.

Oh no. That is not an insult to Him, Monsieur. Please do not start your antics again...please.

No antics this time.

The hypostatic union, mon frère. Jesus was just as much man as God. He even said He did not even know when the hour of His return was. People had desire to be healed of their illnesses, I do not deny this in the least. Yet, that was a fleshly desire. Those who saw Jesus for who He really was/is were the ones saved. These were the ones who were healed mind, body and soul.

True. And at all times He was fully God and perfect humanity. He never, at any time, was not deity.

Ooooookaaaaayyyyy....

Jesus did not always use the powers of his deity. On the way to the cross he had the full power of his omnipotence available to him. He told Peter to put up his sword. He then told him, "Do you not know that I could call 12 legions of angels from my heavenly Father." 72,000 angels could have delivered him at that time. But that was not the Father's will. It was His will to go to the cross as a man and be crucified and suffer as a man, not to exercise his divine omnipotence.
In the same way, when he asked about the nine, he chose not to use his divine omniscience. "Where are the nine," he asks as a man, not as God. Why didn't they come back to be spiritually healed? As I said it is the same question you are asking.

Any that were no saved were not His to begin with. There, I answered you rather easily.

You rely to heavily on this answer. It ultimately is a hard determinism which leads to fatalism.

Done answered.

It has never been answered, only asserted.
There is no scripture that "asserts" or teaches that faith is a gift of God given to the unregenerate. This is the Calvinistic position but it cannot be backed up with scripture.

You read free will into everything that has to do with soteriology, Monsieur.

Man was made in the image and likeness of God. He was made differently than the animals created before him. Part of that difference is that he was given the power of reason, to make decisions, to choose between right and wrong, and to do so without being coerced.

Faith from Him and faith innate are polar opposites. You bet your sweet bippy God does differeniate from the two.

Then demonstrate from the scriptures where God gives faith to the unregenerate. It can't be done or at least hasn't up to this point.

All of it, the word, grace, faith, repentance, salvation and finally glorification comes directly from God.

Faith is not given and neither is repentance.
In Acts 17 God commands all men everywhere to repent. He does not give them the ability to repent, he commands them of their own ability to repent. They are the ones that must repent, not God.

Again, grace is not the only thing He bestows unto the unregenerate and expects them to take up the slack.

Not grace, but mercy.
He allows the sun to shine upon the just and the unjust alike. That is mercy.

His grace is shown through Jesus Christ in making salvation available to all.
That is the gift of salvation which must be received. If it is received by faith then and only then can that person be saved.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

The definition of blasphemy in its simplest form is "to insult God." I believe your question is an insult to God. Why? Because Jesus himself asked the same question and never gave an answer or told us the reason why.
That either is insulting (blasphemous) or overly arrogant.
Either Jesus in his humanity didn't know, or didn't tell. But you want me to tell you.

...

Brother DHK,

The reason you have no answer for Brother Sovereign is because Brother Sovereign's question is a logical one and exposes how your theology is faulty in that it is illogical. Those believing in the doctrines of grace have an answer for this question, and it is a logical answer- one believes the gospel and another doesn't believe the same gospel preached by the same man because the one has been given a new heart by God, therefore he believes, while the other still has a stony heart, therefore he does not believe. It is a simple question and the answer is simple as well, however you are unable to answer his simple question because you believe both hearts are the same before the gospel is preached, thus you can't reconcile why one would respond differently. If the cause of faith is the gospel preached (this is what you believe), then the effect would be universally the same when the cause is being exerted upon two individuals that share the same unregenerated nature. The fact that you have people who believe and some who don't proves that one must first be regenerated to believe and disproves your theology.

 

[DHK]

Brother DHK,

The reason you have no answer for Brother Sovereign is because Brother Sovereign's question is a logical one and exposes how your theology is faulty in that it is illogical. Those believing in the doctrines of grace have an answer for this question, and it is a logical answer- one believes the gospel and another doesn't believe the same gospel preached by the same man because the one has been given a new heart by God, therefore he believes, while the other still has a stony heart, therefore he does not believe. It is a simple question and the answer is simple as well, however you are unable to answer his simple question because you believe both hearts are the same before the gospel is preached, thus you can't reconcile why one would respond differently. If the cause of faith is the gospel preached (this is what you believe), then the effect would be universally the same when the cause is being exerted upon two individuals that share the same unregenerated nature. The fact that you have people who believe and some who don't proves that one must first be regenerated to believe and disproves your theology.

Not at all.
The jailer got saved. Why not all the prisoners who saw all the same phenomena, one may ask?
This insane question is questioning the sovereignty of God, and therefore an insult to God. You are questioning why God does the things the way He does, as if He does things wrong!! That is why I used the rather sharp word of "blasphemy." The definition of the word is "to insult God." When you question his ways are you not insulting him.
God knew before the foundations of the world who, out of his own free will, would choose to believe and who would not. On that basis he chose them.
But we don't know that. Neither do we know the reason why some men choose to accept and some men choose to reject.

The invitation is always there as it was with Israel.
"Choose ye this day whom ye will serve." Did they all choose to serve Jehovah?
The record shows that they of that generation did.

Joshua 24:31 And Israel served the LORD all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that overlived Joshua, and which had known all the works of the LORD, that he had done for Israel.
--They chose to serve the Lord for two generations. And then they fell away.

Why not just one generation, or why not three generations? You are asking me to tell you what God's plan is, or to question whether or not God did right?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Not at all.

This insane question is questioning the sovereignty of God, and therefore an insult to God.

Hi Brother DHK,

It is called using logic, not blasphemy! You are resorting to ad hominem type attacks against Brother Sovereign and I by basically calling us blasphemers as you have no other answer to resort to. Your doctrine is illogical, that is why you cannot provide an answer, but there is an answer (and a logical one at that from the other side), from the doctrine you despise and refer to as "Calvinism". I will leave it at that and withdraw from the discussion as I am out of town till Tuesday.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[TCassidy]

God knew before the foundations of the world who, out of his own free will, would choose to believe and who would not. On that basis he chose them.

Do you not see the contradiction in that statement? First you have them choosing God (an impossibility), then you have God choosing them.

John 15:16 You didn’t choose me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain; that whatever you will ask of the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

Christ chose them (to salvation) and appointed them (to ministry) and sent them (to preach and bear fruit).

All of God. None of Tom.

 

[DHK]

Hi Brother DHK,

It is called using logic, not blasphemy! You are resorting to ad hominem type attacks against Brother Sovereign and I by basically calling us blasphemers as you have no other answer to resort to. Your doctrine is illogical, that is why you cannot provide an answer, but there is an answer (and a logical one at that from the other side), from the doctrine you despise and refer to as "Calvinism". I will leave it at that and withdraw from the discussion as I am out of town till Tuesday.

God bless,

Brother Joe

No I meant no insult to you, that is why I tried to choose my words carefully by defining what "blasphemy" is in the simplest form or definition. I know it is a highly offensive word, and I apologize if you took it that way.
I tried to explain that IMO, to ask this question, that no one can answer but God alone, is to question his sovereignty. So why do you ask me those questions that only God can answer. I will just leave it there.

 

[DHK]

Do you not see the contradiction in that statement? First you have them choosing God (an impossibility), then you have God choosing them.

John 15:16 You didn’t choose me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain; that whatever you will ask of the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

Christ chose them (to salvation) and appointed them (to ministry) and sent them (to preach and bear fruit).

All of God. None of Tom.

I do believe God initiates salvation, even prepares the soil via the work of His Holy Spirit.
But there still is the matter of free choice in salvation. There must be. We see it all throughout the Bible.
"According to your faith, so be it."
The repetitive command to "believe," or "repent," or "Call," etc. These are imperatives with an understood subject of "you."