That is Arminius's position in a nut shell.
Then he was not even a 4 pointer, in my opinion.
I did not know this bit of info. Mucho gracias...errr...merci beaucoup.
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Where does faith come from? 2nd Rodeo
- Thread starter SovereignGrace
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Then he was not even a 4 pointer, in my opinion.
I did not know this bit of info. Mucho gracias...errr...merci beaucoup.
De nada. Uh, I mean de rien.
I am really hoping to get the opposing guys' view on this 'faith is based upon relationship' ideology.
Champion Citabria. Airbatic. Great little plane. And more fun to fly than anything I have ever flown and that is just about everything from a Cessna 150 to a Beechcraft King Air to a Republic F-105 Thunderchief.
I Googled, that 105 had to be fun unless someone was after you.
It didn't matter who was after us. That bird was FAST! Mach 1 at tree top level. Mach 2 at altitude. And the guys on the ground never had a chance. By the time they heard us coming we were already gone.
They cannot unless they hear the word of God first. Romans 10:17
Further, the ability to respond to the word of God preached is not based on regeneration but on the work of the holy Spirit prior to regeneration. God is powerful enough to make clear the gospel in the heart of men without first regenerating him.God is that good.
Titus 3:5 "not by works of righteousness which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit."
Isn't the renewing work of the Holy Spirit regeneration?
Ok there are two things going on in that verse that you appear to be conflating:
1. washing of regeneration
2. renewing
Anyway, that is beside the point I made. That verse does not speak to where faith comes from.
Repost from my answer:In the other thread that is now closed, I never got a chance to respond to Brother DHK's response to me. So here we go...
DHK quoted this:
I then said:
Then he responded by saying this: I will quote the whole response here and then break it down so I can answer each point I am making.
Now, I will break this down point-by-point to make my point(s):
Great! Hallelujah! Glory to God! An accord!
Wait a minute. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit, yet you say faith is based on relationship. If the unregenerate have a fruit of the Spirit(I.E. faith), how can they have faith if it is based upon a relationship with God? The unregenerate are God's enemy. That would be like saying USA had a relationship with Adolf Hitler.
What I am saying is that innate faith is something everyone possesses. But that faith is directed towards everything, everyone but God. The faith it takes to be saved is God-given. Once regenerated by God and infused with saving faith and repentance, they are no longer unregenerate, but regenerate and NOW have a relationship with God, and not before.
If everyone has/had faith in this manner, everyone would be saved. God adds us to the body and places us where He pleases to do so. Paul addressed this very thing in that some are a foot, some are a hand, some an eye, some a finger, some a nose, &c. Not everyone can be one body part. That is why some were Apostles, some are now preachers, some are teachers, some a just 'pew-sitters', but all have their place in the body. But everyone makes up some body part in the body of Christ and plays a vital role.
He did. Judas Iscariot. He sent him out with the other eleven to do miracles, and I have no reason to not believe he did some miracles. However, the bible never speaks one way or the other, so it is just speculation. I am not dogmatic about this, but it does appear he did have the same authority over demons, sickness and death the other eleven had.
Yes it is. Faith is a spiritual gift...saving faith, not innate faith.
Thank you for a quick preview of your view here. I agree, it is absurd.
Faith in the sense of Salvation
Ephesians 2:8 & 9
Faith=pisteos
Thayer’s uses pistis conviction of the truth of anything, belief
Mounce states that this is firm belief
Henry=From Scripture it is clear, that whether men have been most prone to sensual or to spiritual wickedness, all men, being naturally children of disobedience, are also by nature children of wrath. What reason have sinners, then, to seek earnestly for that grace which will make them, of children of wrath, children of God and heirs of glory! God's eternal love or good-will toward his creatures, is the fountain whence all his mercies flow to us; and that love of God is great love, and that mercy is rich mercy. And every converted sinner is a saved sinner; delivered from sin and wrath. The grace that saves is the free, undeserved goodness and favour of God; and he saves, not by the works of the law, but through faith in Christ Jesus. Grace in the soul is a new life in the soul. A regenerated sinner becomes a living soul; he lives a life of holiness, being born of God: he lives, being delivered from the guilt of sin, by pardoning and justifying grace. Sinners roll themselves in the dust; sanctified souls sit in heavenly places, are raised above this world, by Christ's grace. The goodness of God in converting and saving sinners heretofore, encourages others in after-time, to hope in his grace and mercy. Our faith, our conversion, and our eternal salvation, are not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eadie=It is the uniform doctrine of the New Testament, that no man is saved against his will; and his desire to be saved is proved by his belief of the Divine testimony. Salvation by grace is not arbitrarily attached to faith by the mere sovereign dictate of the Most High, for man's willing acceptance of salvation is essential to his possession of it, and the operation of faith is just the sinner's appreciation of the Divine mercy, and his acquiescence in the goodness and wisdom of the plan of recovery, followed by a cordial appropriation of its needed and adapted blessings, or, as Augustine tersely and quaintly phrases it-Qui creavit te sine te, non salvabit te sine te. Justification by faith alone, is simply pardon enjoyed on the one condition of taking it.
Faith in the sense of Faithfulness
Galatians 5:22
Faith=pistis=faithfulness
Thayer=2. Fidelity, Fatihfulness
Mounce uses pistis as the word but uses the definition as faithfulness
Henry=faith, fidelity, justice, and honesty, in what we profess and promise to others
Eadie=πίστις—“faith” (“faythfulnes,” Tyndale, Cranmer)-not simply faith in God in the theological sense (Jerome, Theophylact),-that being implied, as the Spirit dwells only in those who have faith,-nor merely fidelity or good faith (Meyer), nor veracity (Winer); but trust generally, trustfulness toward God and towards man. Confidence in God, in all His promises, and under all His dispensations; and a spirit of unsuspicious and generous confidence towards men,-not moved by doubts and jealousies, nor conjuring up possible causes of distrust, and treasuring up sad lessons from previous instances of broken plight. 1 Corinthians 13:7.
I believe faith comes from "the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit."
An unsaved person does not have a relationship with Christ, and indeed cannot have one. Neither does God give him the faith to have one, as he does not give his spiritual gifts to unbelievers. There is no evidence of that in Scripture. It is simply a mantra (as evidenced here) with no scriptural back up.
The relationship is with the Word, not with Christ, per se. For example, take the gospel to a Muslim. He will not be saved until he is fully convinced that the gospel is true; Christ is who he says he is (God incarnate come in the flesh, the second person of the triune Godhead, Deity and perfect humanity dying on the cross for his sins, paying a penalty that he so richly deserves, and that the Father is a personal God that can be approached, not an impersonal God that is aloof from the affairs of man). He must understand in the very least these things that all pertain to the gospel.
Thus faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. He is not going to get saved the first time he hears the gospel, as most of you did not get saved the first time you heard the gospel.
He must establish trust, confidence in this message that it is true. That is where the relationship is. That is where faith comes from. It is not from God, but from His Word, and that is what the Bible declares here.
Once he is confident of this message he can choose to put his faith in the Lord, or not. That decision is up to him. God is not going to force his hand.
Great. We agree here. Now explain how an unregenerate can have faith in God when faith comes from relationship.
When He regenerates them, they are no longer unregenerate, but regenerate, no longer an unbeliever, but a believer, no longer condemned, but justified. All this is solely God's doing to 'dead in transgressions and sins' sinners.
I have shown you but you disagree.
Oh boy!! It's not an either/or but both. One will not have a relationship with Christ without the word and vice versa.
Unless God opens theirs eyes, ears and heart they will never come to these truths.
Oui.
Maybe so. But some probably have. Quit looking at man's deficiencies and look at God's sufficiencies. He saves when He sees fit to do so, via the gospel, of course.
To have trust in His word, you must also have faith in Him. It is not an either/or but both. Sinners have no faith in, no relationship with God. God is the One who establishes that relationship, not man and his innate faith.
So the ball is in his court to choose to be saved or remained lost? That's a mighty faulty faith. God can only save those who choose to allow Him to save him? Wowzers!!
Hebrews 11
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Does mankind have things they hope for, that is as unbelievers do they hope in something? Many have hope in a false religion. Many have hope in their works. That is faith a faith that is in every human being. Mankind has been given the ability to have Faith in something in is inherent in us all.
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Yet what did God tell Cain?
Genesis 4:
6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
What did Christ tell Cain here?
Do good that do as Abel and have faith in me, yet Cain did not do good, Cain rejected, he refused to place his faith in Chirst. If Cain had no choice but to reject why did The Lord tell Him to do good, that to do as Abel and have Faith?
If God supplies the Faith needed for salvation and didn't supply it for Cain why did He tell Cain to do so?
If Cain had no option to do good that is to place his Faith in the Promised savior why did the Lord even bother to tell him too?
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Does mankind have things they hope for, that is as unbelievers do they hope in something? Many have hope in a false religion. Many have hope in their works. That is faith a faith that is in every human being. Mankind has been given the ability to have Faith in something in is inherent in us all.
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Yet what did God tell Cain?
Genesis 4:
6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
What did Christ tell Cain here?
Do good that do as Abel and have faith in me, yet Cain did not do good, Cain rejected, he refused to place his faith in Chirst. If Cain had no choice but to reject why did The Lord tell Him to do good, that to do as Abel and have Faith?
If God supplies the Faith needed for salvation and didn't supply it for Cain why did He tell Cain to do so?
If Cain had no option to do good that is to place his Faith in the Promised savior why did the Lord even bother to tell him too?
mwc,
Let's look at the Genesis 4 passage you posted...I'll use the NIV...
Then the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”[vss 6-7]
Here is God Himself speaking to Cain. He is telling him to do what is right and if he chooses to do the wrong thing(s), sin will devour him, as it does to all unregenerate people. But, the following verses show the true heart Cain possessed, Monsieur.
Now Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let’s go out to the field.” While they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him.
Here was Cain luring his brother Abel out into a field for the sole purpose of killing him, in my opinion. He was jealous of, had hatred for, his brother. By God stating for Cain to do the right thing, by him doing this evil act of murder, God exposed Cain's wicked heart.
Then the LORD said to Cain, “Where is your brother Abel?” “I don’t know,” he replied. “Am I my brother’s keeper?”
Here he lied...another sin. Further exposing his wicked, sinful heart.
The LORD said, “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground.
God exposing his sin unto him, showing him He knew what Cain did.
Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth.”
And his just sentence rendered unto him.
Cain said to the LORD, “My punishment is more than I can bear. Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.” But the LORD said to him, “Not so ; anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the LORD put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. So Cain went out from the LORD’s presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden.
In all of his conversing with God, not once did he:
1) admit guilt
2) confess his wrongdoing(sin) unto God
3) ask for forgiveness/mercy
All of these point back to what God told him in verse vss 6,7. God exposed his wicked heart unto him.
Let's look at the Genesis 4 passage you posted...I'll use the NIV...
Then the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”[vss 6-7]
Here is God Himself speaking to Cain. He is telling him to do what is right and if he chooses to do the wrong thing(s), sin will devour him, as it does to all unregenerate people. But, the following verses show the true heart Cain possessed, Monsieur.
Now Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let’s go out to the field.” While they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him.
Here was Cain luring his brother Abel out into a field for the sole purpose of killing him, in my opinion. He was jealous of, had hatred for, his brother. By God stating for Cain to do the right thing, by him doing this evil act of murder, God exposed Cain's wicked heart.
Then the LORD said to Cain, “Where is your brother Abel?” “I don’t know,” he replied. “Am I my brother’s keeper?”
Here he lied...another sin. Further exposing his wicked, sinful heart.
The LORD said, “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground.
God exposing his sin unto him, showing him He knew what Cain did.
Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth.”
And his just sentence rendered unto him.
Cain said to the LORD, “My punishment is more than I can bear. Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.” But the LORD said to him, “Not so ; anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the LORD put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. So Cain went out from the LORD’s presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden.
In all of his conversing with God, not once did he:
1) admit guilt
2) confess his wrongdoing(sin) unto God
3) ask for forgiveness/mercy
All of these point back to what God told him in verse vss 6,7. God exposed his wicked heart unto him.
Cain was like every born except Christ, Totally depraved. But as we see God Tells Cain, " If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?" who must make the choice here Cain or God? God will accept Cain if he makes the choice to do that which was right. What was the right thing for Cain to do? Believe and obey God, it was his decision to make and if he made the right choice by Faith, God would accept him. Cain let his totally depraved heart rule that is his old sin nature continued to dominate his life and he allowed sin to win in his life, and was rejected for it.
Wonderful verse full of truth.
Many have hope in winning the lottery to live a life of luxury. To travel the world, visit France and stroll through Champs-Elysées. Many want fame and prestige and work hard to make it in Nashville, Hollywood, broadway, and place their hopes in music and/or acting. All of these are carnal/natural/physical hopes, as they have their faith in everything but God.
These are all examples of that innate faith all people have. They have a relationship with that faith and exercise it all the time. I have faith my car gets me back and forth to work, but if it breaks down, my faith is destroyed. This is innate faith. I also have faith that God will do for me what He has purposed for me in this life and the life yet to come when He returns. That is spiritual, God-given faith, Monsieur.
Already answered this in my previous post.
No 'if' about it, He does, mon frere.
To expose his sin unto him.
Cain was justly punished for killing his brother. In fact, God showed him mercy by not taking his life right then and there. All people have the requirement to do the right thing all the time. Yet, their fallen nature precludes them from doing it many times.
Oui.
Man is held responsible for his choices.
Correct. What choice did he make? Hmmmm?
God had not wrought the work of grace in Cain's heart, Monsier. Cain's heart was corrupted with sin, his nature was fallen, bound, enslaved in sin, his will bent towards sin and self, and not towards God. By God conversing with Cain, He showed him how wicked he was.
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I believe faith comes from "the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit."
I asked you a question in a thread you closed and because of your answer to that question I know no other way way to ask this question. I know, no Greek. Also I am 73 and probably do not have 40 years ahead of me to get experience should I go to school and learn Greek. I asked an honest question.
From Blue Letter Bible.
Eph. 2:8 τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως καὶ το ῦτοοὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον --- Textus Receptus
Titus 3:5 οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων τῶν ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ ὧν ἐποιήσαμεν ἡμεῖς ἀλλὰ κατὰ τὸν αὐτοῦ ἔλεον ἔσωσεν ἡμᾶς διὰ λουτροῦ παλιγγενεσίας καὶ ἀνακαινώσεως πνεύματος ἁγίου
Textus Receptus
Do these two say the same. That is, do they tell us how we were saved or how we are saved or can be saved? Are they both the same, "saved"?
If I assume they are the same and that the passage from Eph. is the simplest form of the two: I can see saved whether the same or not in both passages. Where in Titus is the grace and where in Titus is, the faith?
I agree, I think, that saving faith, are in both.
BTW I used the TR because I believe, "τῆς" before faith is important for understanding. Is it definite? If it is, then don't one have to ask whose faith is being spoken of, your own? I believe to leave, τῆς, out then makes it, your own, where as I do not believe faith there is what comes from the man. Why did Young leave it out? It was my understanding he was interlinear to the TR?
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