Where Does Faith Come From?

[Reformed]

I think that you've confused me with another poster. I never argued that it was (or that you said it was) a time based system of belief.

Then I have no idea what your caution is about.

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[JonC]

Then I have no idea what your caution is about.

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I don't know what you're talking about with time....guess we're even .

What Qualifies as Calvinism?

 

[Iconoclast]

Revmitchell,

God gave us our ability to think, analyze, put faith in, trust, believe etc. at the time He created us.

Are you speaking of Adam, or sinners after the fall?

It is built into our ability to reason and come to conclusions. Faith is a result of that. We have always had the ability to have faith in a great many things.

So the natural man, has no need of a supernatural salvation by God giving him a new heart?
As a sinner he has full ability?

The fall did not affect mankind at all, they have full natural ability to welcome spiritual truth?

We struggle to have faith in things

You seem to be speaking of a "human trust". You go on the plane because you have faith that the airline hired a trained pilot who can take off and land.

]We struggle to have faith in things
due to our environment and experiences. Sometimes our own reasoning works against us. Our perception of things is often flawed. But that does not change the fact that if we can get past our flawed perceptions and emotions that we can and always have been able to have faith (believe) in whatever we choose to believe in.

So again..man can do it by himself!. I see no mention of any supernatural work of God taking place. Do you deny that The Spirit alone gives a new heart? You do not mention the Holy Spirit at all, just man

Then comes the gospel which has in it the power of truth,

could you define or explain, "the Power of truth"?

the HS,

what happens? Does the Holy Spirit watch as a spectator?

and to change lives[/QUOTE].

What changes lives?

Our ability to have faith (believe, trust in) is already there from the beginning of creation.

Do you have any scriptural support for this idea?

It is certainly interfered with but it has never been taken away from us.[/QUOTE]

What do you mean by this? interfered with? In what way?

According to 1 Cor 9 if we look at things through a worldly lens then we will struggle to see godly things. That is the great thing about the gospel. It places reality though the lens of the Savior and has the ability to change our perspective. Those who want to hold on to their worldly perspective never do.

No idea what you are posting about with this???

You have a focus on some mystical faith that is cast upon us which is not ever shown in scripture

.

This looks like a denial of the supernatural work of God in revealing truth to a person. Could you explain how you are not denying this teaching of scripture?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

.at no time does scripture present faith as being mystical or a second measure of grace from God.

So the natural man does not need God to reveal truth to him?

 

[atpollard]

Did I say the grammar supports "that conclusion?" So yet another strawman argument, another change the subject argument, another deflection, more obfuscation.

Please, stop.
The grammar of the verse necessitates that all of it “saved”, “by grace”, and “through faith” are collectively and inseparably what is a “gift” from God. You have been told and shown as much SEVERAL times and still keep making the unsupported claim that Nothing in Ephesians 2:8-9 states that faith is a gift. So I provided you with the actual words of the Apostle Paul so you could explain why you are right and all other Greek grammarians are mistaken.

It is not a straw man, it is an opportunity for you to prove that you are not an idiot that cannot read what people post or research it for yourself. That you are a Greek Scholar with the first correct translation in 2000 years.

 

[atpollard]

2 And behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, be of good cheer; thy sins are forgiven. Mt 9
5 And Jesus seeing their faith saith unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins are forgiven. Mk 2
20 And seeing their faith, he said, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee. Lu 5

That's some bodacious 'saving faith', eh? Powerful enough to get another's sins forgiven.

I think the “their” included the faith of the man healed.
(But your reading WAS more impressive.)

 

[Revmitchell]

I deny that we are first regenerated and then have the ability to believe.

“He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.” James 1:18

The ability to have birth in Christ comes from the word (the gospel)

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." Romans 1:16

The gospel is the power to salvation not prior regeneration.

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God," John 1:12

1. Receive Christ
2. Believed Christ
3. Then they are given the right to be children of God.

“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!” Ezekiel 18:30-32

1. Repent
2. Then get a new heart.

 

[Revmitchell]

Well, I gave you those quotes from Dr. Flowers where he stated the gospel all by itself is sufficient. He is denying the supernatural work of the Spirit is necessary in the gospel presentation. Just present it and allow them to will themselves saved with any influence...errr...interference from God.

Pelagius taught that very same thing. I think Finney and Sandeman did, too, but I could be wrong.

Please quote, in context, Dr. Flowers where he denies the supernatural work of the Spirit in salvation. Please link to the exact place where you find these.

 

[Revmitchell]

Well, I gave you those quotes from Dr. Flowers where he stated the gospel all by itself is sufficient. He is denying the supernatural work of the Spirit is necessary in the gospel presentation. Just present it and allow them to will themselves saved with any influence...errr...interference from God.

Pelagius taught that very same thing. I think Finney and Sandeman did, too, but I could be wrong.

"What is not in dispute is that regeneration is the sovereign act of God whereby He imparts His very life and His very nature to the believing sinner (John 1:12-13; Titus 3:5). Man’s first birth is natural; his second birth is spiritual and supernatural. His first birth makes him a member of a fallen race; his second birth makes him a member of a redeemed race. His first birth gives him a depraved nature (Eph. 2:3); his second birth makes him partaker of the divine nature (2 Pet. 1:4). The moment a person is born again he receives a new life (John 6:47; 1 John 5:12) and a new position as a child of God (John 1:12; 1 John 3:1-2). In short, he is a new creature in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17).[6] We can all affirm these truths." ~ Dr. Flowers

Does Regeneration Precede Faith?

 

[Revmitchell]

Some are in the baptistboard archives

Great please provide them and the link to them.

 

[JonC]

Some are in the baptistboard archives

Post a couple.

 

[Gup20]

So the natural man, has no need of a supernatural salvation by God giving him a new heart?
As a sinner he has full ability?

The fall did not affect mankind at all, they have full natural ability to welcome spiritual truth?

This is a common straw man argument I see. This makes several faulty assumptions which the presenters of the straw man expects you to take a priori because they do. One of those is the assumption that faith requires supernatural power because of its affect on God. However, this displays an ignorance of how salvation actually works (not that I believe you are ignorant - quite to the contrary). However, the church, by and large, has been woefully sparse on the details present in scripture as to how salvation works.

Salvation works by mere belief first qualifying us for human adoption into the group “the descendants of Abraham.” This group is the “chosen” or “elect” group. No one needs to have any mystical or spiritual power to be adopted. The way we become adopted is by having the same faith in the gospel of Christ that Abraham had. Then, those in kinship with Abraham inherit the righteousness (salvation) that was given to Abraham for his faith in the gospel. While human adoption doesn’t require any extraordinary power, the actual saving — the new birth — does. Just because God allows us to choose whether or not to join the elect group doesn’t mean that God doesn’t perform the miracle of new birth. However, it is not our faith which motivates God to perform this miracle as Calvinists pre-suppose — it is God’s promise to Abraham which motivates Him to renew the believer.

Nehemiah 9:7-8 (NASB) 7 "You are the LORD God, Who chose Abram And brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham. 8 "You found his heart faithful before You, And made a covenant with him To give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite-- To give it to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.

It is that promise or covenant that God makes with Abraham and with his descendants which motivates him, not our faith. Our mere belief, which mirrors Abraham’s mere belief, qualifies us as one of the descendants that God has promised righteousness to as an everlasting covenant and inheritance. Contrary to Calvinist and Arminianism thought, faith doesn’t qualify us for righteousness... but rather.. first it qualifies us for human adoption ... something which doesn’t require any miracles or mystical power. The power comes AFTER belief... in transforming the adopted into the new birth as a new creation.

Galatians 3:6-9 (NASB) 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Once we are qualified as heirs, God gives us the Holy Spirit as a seal of the righteousness we inherit from Abraham... the Holy Spirit is a placeholder.. a pledge... of the full inheritance to come at the resurrection and second judgment.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (NASB) 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

I often compare it to a father cooking breakfast for his children; he tells them “you can have pancakes or waffles... but just FYI, the pancakes are better.” The children have the option of selecting between the two choices (scripture says the choices are life or death, blessing cursing). They cannot make a selection outside the options the father gives, so the father is still sovereign over breakfast. Yet, the children can play a role as well. Additionally, the father “cooks” the breakfast.

Similarly, God gives us the choice between life and death by allowing us to choose to join Abraham’s descendants. God is still the one effecting the new birth... we do not “save ourselves” but we are allowed to choose which family we join by whether we choose to believe the gospel.

 

[Revmitchell]

"So, by Calvinists own admission, Augustine introduced much of these unique (and often controversial) doctrinal beliefs in the 5th century.[7]

Pelagius stood up against Augustine’s new doctrinal positions and even went so far as to accuse him of being under the influence of his former Manichean (Gnostic) roots, which was known to teach pagan fatalism as if it were a Christian doctrine.[8] Augustine, in turn, accused Pelagius of denying any need for divine aid in the conversion process. It is likely that both of them went too far in their accusations against the other, but history reveals that it was Augustine’s smears of Pelagius that won over in the court of public opinion.[9]

Pelagianism, therefore, has become known historically as “the teaching that man has the capacity to seek God in and of himself apart from any movement of God or the Holy Spirit, and therefore that salvation is affected by man’s efforts.”[10]

Traditionalists, like myself, wholeheartedly deny this belief and consider the label offensive and completely misrepresentative of our actual teachings (and I’m under the impression Pelagius himself would express similar sentiments if given a fair hearing today)." ~ Dr. Flowers

Pelagianism: The Boogie Man

 

[JonC]

The straw-man here is that if you do not agree with a few here you will be falsely accused of denying the supernatural work of God in salvation.

For example

The Holy Spirit inspired the gospel.
The Holy Spirit preserved the gospel.
The Holy Spirit indwells those to proclaim the gospel.

(1) When one rejects the gospel are they not actually rejecting a work of the Holy Spirit?

(2) Likewise, when one accepts the gospel should that not also be credited to the Holy Spirit since the gospel is HIS work, even if NO additional working was involved?

(3) How does the gracious work of the Holy Spirit in writing, preserving, and spreading the gospel not sufficient to be seen as the needed power to 'draw' men to Christ?​

This member attributes the gospel message and the Spirit indwelt messagenger to God (this is supernatural). But since the member disagrees with a few here they will slander the man for believing the gospel is tge power of God unto salvation.

I may not agree with the quoted member, but tgat would be no reason to deal with him dishonestly.

 

[Revmitchell]

The straw-man here is that if you do not agree with a few here you will be falsely accused of denying the supernatural work of God in salvation.

For example



This member attributes the gospel message and the Spirit indwelt messagenger to God (this is supernatural). But since the member disagrees with a few here they will slander the man for believing the gospel is tge power of God unto salvation.

I may not agree with the quoted member, but tgat would be no reason to deal with him dishonestly.

It is getting bad.

 

[Reformed1689]

For the record, the doctrines of grace did not start with Augustine, they started with the biblical writers.

 

[Iconoclast]

The straw-man here is that if you do not agree with a few here you will be falsely accused of denying the supernatural work of God in salvation.

For example



This member attributes the gospel message and the Spirit indwelt messagenger to God (this is supernatural). But since the member disagrees with a few here they will slander the man for believing the gospel is tge power of God unto salvation.

I may not agree with the quoted member, but tgat would be no reason to deal with him dishonestly.

The only false accusations seem to be coming from your keyboard.

Great please provide them and the link to them.

I will look , it takes time, I have a 4am delivery ..
.in the meantime could you respond to post 143?
I do see you saying this;

You have a focus on some mystical faith that is cast upon us which is not ever shown in scripture
.
.at no time does scripture present faith as being mystical or a second measure of grace from God.
So the natural man does not need God to reveal truth to him?

also this;

God gave us our ability to think, analyze, put faith in, trust, believe etc. at the time He created us. It is built into our ability to reason and come to conclusions. Faith is a result of that. We have always had the ability to have faith in a great many things.

We struggle to have faith in things due to our environment and experiences. Sometimes our own reasoning works against us. Our perception of things is often flawed. But that does not change the fact that if we can get past our flawed perceptions and emotions that we can and always have been able to have faith (believe) in whatever we choose to believe in.

Then comes the gospel which has in it the power of truth, the HS, and to change lives. Our ability to have faith (believe, trust in) is already there from the beginning of creation. It is certainly interfered with but it has never been taken away from us.[/QUOTE]

 

[Van]

Please, stop.
The grammar of the verse necessitates that all of it “saved”, “by grace”, and “through faith” are collectively and inseparably what is a “gift” from God. You have been told and shown as much SEVERAL times and still keep making the unsupported claim that Nothing in Ephesians 2:8-9 states that faith is a gift. So I provided you with the actual words of the Apostle Paul so you could explain why you are right and all other Greek grammarians are mistaken.

It is not a straw man, it is an opportunity for you to prove that you are not an idiot that cannot read what people post or research it for yourself. That you are a Greek Scholar with the first correct translation in 2000 years.

Your claim Greek grammar requires "through faith" to be part of the gift is false.
No one has shown that faith is a gift of God based on grammar of Ephesians 2:8-9.
Copy and pasting a verse in Greek is a stunt, not calculated to enlighten.
All the other Greek grammarians are not mistaken, but you may be.
I have no need to prove I am not "an idiot."
I have no need to prove I read posts.
His faith, your faith mentioned many times, his God given faith never mentioned.
Ephesians 2:8-9 does not say nor suggest faith is the gift or is part of the gift. The claim is simply reading what is not there into the text. Twaddle

Whose faith did God credit as righteousness in Romans 4:4-5? "Abraham's faith, his faith."

 

[Reformed]

The straw-man here is that if you do not agree with a few here you will be falsely accused of denying the supernatural work of God in salvation.

For example



This member attributes the gospel message and the Spirit indwelt messagenger to God (this is supernatural). But since the member disagrees with a few here they will slander the man for believing the gospel is tge power of God unto salvation.

I may not agree with the quoted member, but tgat would be no reason to deal with him dishonestly.

Stop it. You know better than to paint with such a broad brush. No one is slandering LF. He was not wrong in everything he posted. He generated heat when purporting corporate election, which was his pet issue. I have nothing against the man personally. I just disagree with his synergism.


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[Revmitchell]

Your claim Greek grammar requires "through faith" to be part of the gift is false.
No one has shown that faith is a gift of God based on grammar of Ephesians 2:8-9.
Copy and pasting a verse in Greek is a stunt, not calculated to enlighten.
All the other Greek grammarians are not mistaken, but you may be.
I have no need to prove I am not "an idiot."
I have no need to prove I read posts.
His faith, your faith mentioned many times, his God given faith never mentioned.
Ephesians 2:8-9 does not say nor suggest faith is the gift or is part of the gift. The claim is simply reading what is not there into the text. Twaddle

Whose faith did God credit as righteousness in Romans 4:4-5? "Abraham's faith, his faith."

So he called you an idiot.

 

[JonC]

Stop it. You know better than to paint with such a broad brush. No one is slandering LF. He was not wrong in everything he posted. He generated heat when purporting corporate election, which was his pet issue. I have nothing against the man personally. I just disagree with his synergism.


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I also disagree with his theology.

BUT the accusation made was that "[h]e is denying the supernatural work of the Spirit is necessary in the gospel presentation".

That accusation is false as evidenced by his claim that the power of the Spirit is evident in the gospel message and the indwelt believer delievering that message.

It is cowardice to make false claims against someone by pulling their statements apart when that person is not here to defend himself. It is dishonest because he specifically denied what is claimed of him.