Where Does Faith Come From?

[Iconoclast]

All of us.




I never said that nor did I imply that. It certainly is not what I believe. I think you read that into my words because of your own failed Augustinian doctrine. Scripture is clear God gives us a new heart. It does not come before we believe. We are not first regenerated.



My posts in this thread have already answered this go back and read it yourself.




You guys spend way to much time discounting what we have Naturally (that which we have without and extra supernatural act of God) You make it out to be completely devoid of God. We are made in His image and it is corrupted but not completely devoid less we are no longer made in His image.




I have already answered that.





Not sure why this needs to be explained. Hebrews 4:12, Romans 1:16, James 1:18


Answered

Yes...just like I said.You teach that the natural man can in and of himself welcome truth, before regeneration.
That which we have without the supernatural work of God, contrary to scripture.
You teach man is just fine as he is. You claim you answered the other questions, but you have not.
That is your answer. Thst is all you can do is offer what you believe. Thanks for your response.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 9:30 AM Pacific.

 

[JonC]

No JonC...I am asking you to butt out and asking Mitchell to clarify his post. D o you think you can do that?
I want him to clarify what he posted.Not affirm what you want him to say. He has posted over 40000 times.

He can do it all by himself JonC.

@Iconoclast

If you want to have a one on one conversation there is a feature for that. Send him a PM.

Anyone can comment on the open forum. Do not tell anyone to keep out of your "conversation" on the open forum.

 

[SovereignGrace]

@JonC


Here is what Dr. Flowers said and I stopped and started to make sure I got this word-for-word from his mouth...

“We need the gospel, that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, not that the gospel PLUS some supernatural extra work that has to happen, is the power of God unto salvation.“

“This effectual work of God that has to happen in order for someone to believe the gospel, that is difficult, at least for me, to get over.”

Dr. Roger Olson just said “okay”. He would not refute him, but you could tell he would have no of this.

Dr. Flowers has said that the gospel ALONE, not the gospel PLUS the some supernatural extra extra work, saves ppl. That’s full blown Pelagianism.

I am convinced you will say Dr. Flowers didn’t mean it that way. But that’s how he ALWAYS operates. When he’s caught with his proverbial pants down, he says he didn’t say it, it got twisted into something else.

 

[JonC]

All of us.




I never said that nor did I imply that. It certainly is not what I believe. I think you read that into my words because of your own failed Augustinian doctrine. Scripture is clear God gives us a new heart. It does not come before we believe. We are not first regenerated.



My posts in this thread have already answered this go back and read it yourself.




You guys spend way to much time discounting what we have Naturally (that which we have without and extra supernatural act of God) You make it out to be completely devoid of God. We are made in His image and it is corrupted but not completely devoid less we are no longer made in His image.




I have already answered that.





Not sure why this needs to be explained. Hebrews 4:12, Romans 1:16, James 1:18




Answered

The issue is some have boxed themselves in with their philosophical views. They cannot tolerate an opposing position enough to even understand it but instead look for an echo chamber. That's the difference between those who understand and those who have simply been indoctrinated into a position (it is not the view itself).


Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it; well, he gets it. I don't like it any more than you men.

 

[JonC]

@JonC


Here is what Dr. Flowers said and I stopped and started to make sure I got this word-for-word from his mouth...

“We need the gospel, that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, not that the gospel PLUS some supernatural extra work that has to happen, is the power of God unto salvation.“

“This effectual work of God that has to happen in order for someone to believe the gospel, that is difficult, at least for me, to get over.”

Dr. Roger Olson just said “okay”. He would not refute him, but you could tell he would have no of this.

Dr. Flowers has said that the gospel ALONE, not the gospel PLUS the some supernatural extra extra work, saves ppl. That’s full blown Pelagianism.

I am convinced you will say Dr. Flowers didn’t mean it that way. But that’s how he ALWAYS operates. When he’s caught with his proverbial pants down, he says he didn’t say it, it got twisted into something else.

The Holy Spirit inspired the gospel.
The Holy Spirit preserved the gospel.
The Holy Spirit indwells those to proclaim the gospel.

(1) When one rejects the gospel are they not actually rejecting a work of the Holy Spirit?

(2) Likewise, when one accepts the gospel should that not also be credited to the Holy Spirit since the gospel is HIS work, even if NO additional working was involved?

(3) How does the gracious work of the Holy Spirit in writing, preserving, and spreading the gospel not sufficient to be seen as the needed power to 'draw' men to Christ?​

I do not agree with his theology but I also cannot fault a man for believing Romans 1:16 is literal.

 

[SovereignGrace]

@JonC


Here’s the video where he said it. Go to the 57:00 and start from there. Their convo starts at around 51:40. Those are HIS words coming out of HIS mouth. The very same thing another member on here states as well.

 

[SovereignGrace]

@JonC


I posted the video, listen to it yourself.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The straw-man here is that if you do not agree with a few here you will be falsely accused of denying the supernatural work of God in salvation.

For example



This member attributes the gospel message and the Spirit indwelt messagenger to God (this is supernatural). But since the member disagrees with a few here they will slander the man for believing the gospel is tge power of God unto salvation.

I may not agree with the quoted member, but tgat would be no reason to deal with him dishonestly.

When was this posted by Skandelon? How long ago?

 

[JonC]

I posted the video, listen to it yourself.

I also posted the man's words affirming the supernatural work of the Spirit in salvation. The issue is that the man is not here to defend his position and provide context. I will ALWAYS take the written word of a person over a comment as people are more likely to think through what they write.

It is cowardly to attack a Christian in that person's absence.

Do you believe that that the gospel of Christ for is the power of God unto salvation?

 

[JonC]

When was this posted by Skandelon? How long ago?

Do you believe that that the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation?

 

[SovereignGrace]

I do not agree with his theology but I also cannot fault a man for believing Romans 1:16 is literal.

What he is saying give them the gospel, not the gospel plus the working of the Spirit, and that will save them.

There’s a problem, w/o the Spirit, these words just whizz by as they consider them foolish, and can’t understand them. Why? They’re spiritually discerned.

 

[JonC]

What he is saying give them the gospel, not the gospel plus the working of the Spirit, and that will save them.

There’s a problem, w/o the Spirit, these words just whizz by as they consider them foolish, and can’t understand them. Why? They’re spiritually discerned.

Do you believe that that the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation?

 

[Marooncat79]

This is inspired by an exchange with @Van and I am curious to his, and others, position on this. Where does faith come from? Does it come from God? Or does it come from us? Where does it originate?

According to Ephesians 2:8-9, Faith comes from God

 

[SovereignGrace]

Do you believe that that the gospel of Christ for is the power of God unto salvation?

In accompaniment of the Holy Spirit. Yes.

From Adam Clarke...


It is the power of God unto salvation - δυναμις γαρ θεου εστιν· The almighty power of God accompanies this preaching to the souls of them that believe; and the consequence is, they are saved; and what but the power of God can save a fallen, sinful soul?

 

[Revmitchell]

@JonC


Here is what Dr. Flowers said and I stopped and started to make sure I got this word-for-word from his mouth...

“We need the gospel, that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, not that the gospel PLUS some supernatural extra work that has to happen, is the power of God unto salvation.“

So do you have a problem with scripture? That is what he was quoting?

“This effectual work of God that has to happen in order for someone to believe the gospel, that is difficult, at least for me, to get over.”

Of course. It is no surprise that we do not believe that we must first be regenerated so that we can believe. There is no scandal here.

Dr. Flowers has said that the gospel ALONE, not the gospel PLUS the some supernatural extra extra work, saves ppl. That’s full blown Pelagianism.

You have yet to provide that quote.

I am convinced you will say Dr. Flowers didn’t mean it that way. But that’s how he ALWAYS operates. When he’s caught with his proverbial pants down, he says he didn’t say it, it got twisted into something else.

So far that is what you have done.

 

[JonC]

In accompaniment of the Holy Spirit. Yes.

From Adam Clarke...


It is the power of God unto salvation - δυναμις γαρ θεου εστιν· The almighty power of God accompanies this preaching to the souls of them that believe; and the consequence is, they are saved; and what but the power of God can save a fallen, sinful soul?

So you cannot accept the passage without qualification. Paul did not add the comentary you have provided (it is not somehow hidden in the Greek, this was in the introduction to Romans).

The issue is Flowers has attrubuted the gospel's power as being that it is a work of the Spirit.

The disagreement is not whether or not the Spirit is supernaturally involved but whether or not there is a special work for the elect (as opposed to a general work for all men).

I agree with you that the crux of his argument has man deternining his own salvation. But you were not exactly honest in your wording of his position.

 

[Revmitchell]

There’s a problem, w/o the Spirit, these words just whizz by as they consider them foolish, and can’t understand them. Why? They’re spiritually discerned.

That is where we differ. This is where you Augustinians go wrong. You take one single text as proof text for this bad theology and then completely misunderstand its context. Scripture says there is power in the word itself. (Hebrews 4:12; Romans 1:16; Romans 10:17)

What is scandalous is the low view of scripture in salvation that you all have. The insufficiency of scripture you hold to.

 

[Revmitchell]

Yes...just like I said.You teach that the natural man can in and of himself welcome truth, before regeneration.

And you have a low view of scripture and find it insufficient.

 

[SovereignGrace]

So you cannot accept the passage without qualification. Paul did not add the comentary you have provided (it is not somehow hidden in the Greek, this was in the introduction to Romans).

The issue is Flowers has attrubuted the gospel's power as being that it is a work of the Spirit.

The disagreement is not whether or not the Spirit is supernaturally involved but whether or not there is a special work for the elect (as opposed to a general work for all men).

I agree with you that the crux of his argument has man deternining his own salvation. But you were not exactly honest in your wording of his position.

***Sigh***

Paul isn’t going to contradict himself.

For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, “I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.” Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.[1 Corinthians 1:18-21]

Paul has qualified it here. The word of the cross(i.e. the gospel) is foolishness to those who are perishing. It being presented them they naturally discard it, have no desire for it. But to those who are being saved(same word of the cross being presented them) it is the power of God.

What Paul was saying is that no one is saved outside the preaching of the cross, that the Spirit works through the cross to save them that believe. Now, ppl in their fallen state will never believe. That is why it is imperative to teach that not only the gospel saves, but that the gospel preached while the Spirit works, saves ppl.