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Where does God's Wrath Go?

Zaatar71

Active Member
Dealing with those who would object, he writes this to further clarify;
Perhaps no tenet respecting the atonement has been more violently criticized than this one.[6] It has been assailed as involving a mythological conception of God, as supposing internal conflict in the mind of God and between the persons of the Godhead.

It has been charged that this doctrine represents the Son as winning over the incensed Father to clemency and love, a supposition wholly inconsistent with the fact that the love of God is the very fount from which the atonement springs.

When the doctrine of propitiation is presented in this light it can be very effectively criticized and can be exposed as a revolting caricature of the Christian gospel. But the doctrine of propitiation does not involve this caricature by which it has been misconceived and misrepresented.

To say the least, this kind of criticism has failed to understand or appreciate some elementary and important distinctions.

First of all, to love and to be propitious are not convertible terms. It is false to suppose that the doctrine of propitiation regards propitiation as that which causes or constrains the divine love. It is loose thinking of a deplorable sort to claim that propitiation of the divine wrath does prejudice to or is incompatible with the fullest recognition that the atonement is the provision of the divine love.

Secondly, propitiation is not a turning of the wrath of God into love. The propitiation of the divine wrath, effected in the expiatory work of Christ, is the provision of God's eternal and unchangeable love, so that through the propitiation of his own wrath that love may realize its purpose in a way that is consonant with and to the glory of the dictates of his holiness. It is one thing to say that the wrathful God 8 is made loving. That would be entirely false. It is another thing to say the wrathful God is loving. That is profoundly true. But it is also true that the wrath by which he is wrathful is propitiated through the cross.
This propitiation is the fruit of the divine love that provided it. "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins" (I John 4:10).

The propitiation is the ground upon which the divine love operates and the channel through which it flows in achieving its end.

Thirdly, propitiation does not detract from the love and mercy of God; it rather enhances the marvel of his love. For it shows the cost that redemptive love entails. God is love. But the supreme object of that love is himself. And because he loves himself supremely he cannot suffer what belongs to the integrity of his character and glory to be compromised or curtailed. That is the reason for the propitiation. God appeases his own holy wrath in the cross of Christ in order that the purpose of his love to lost men may be accomplished in accordance with and to the vindication of all the perfections that constitute his glory. "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood to show his righteousness . . . that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus" (Rom. 3:25, 26).

The antipathy to the doctrine of propitiation as the propitiating of divine wrath rests, however, upon failure to appreciate what the atonement is.

The atonement is that which meets the exigencies of holiness and justice. The wrath of God is the inevitable reaction of the divine holiness against sin. Sin is the contradiction of the perfection of God and he cannot but recoil against that which is the contradiction of himself. Such recoil is his holy indignation. "The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness" (Rom. 1:18). The judgment of God upon sin is essentially his wrath.

If we are to believe that the atonement is God's vicarious dealing with the judgment upon sin, it is absolutely necessary to hold that it is the vicarious endurance of that in which this judgment is epitomized.

To deny propitiation is to undermine the nature of the atonement as the vicarious endurance of the penalty of sin. In a word, it is to deny substitutionary atonement.

To glory in the cross is to glory in Christ as the propitiatory sacrifice once offered, as the abiding propitiatory, and as the one who embodies in himself for ever all the propitiatory efficacy of the propitiation once for all accomplished. "And if any one sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And he is the propitiation for our sins (and not for ours only but also for the whole world" (I John 2:1-2).
 

Zaatar71

Active Member
The full reading can be found here, https://theologue.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/thedeathofchrist-johnmurray.pdf


and in the Book Redemption, Accomplished and Applied...By John Murray

On page 16 of this PDF we find this;
(a) The curse of the law. "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us" (Gal. 3:13). The curse of the law is its penal sanction. This is essentially the wrath or curse of God, the displeasure which rests upon every infraction of the law's demand. "Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them" (Gal. 3:10). Without deliverance from this curse there could be no salvation. It is from this curse that Christ has purchased his people and the price of the purchase was that he himself became a curse. He became so identified with the curse resting upon his people that the whole of it in all its unrelieved intensity became his. That curse he bore and that curse he exhausted. That was the price paid for this redemption and the liberty secured for the beneficiaries is that there is no more curse.

(b) The ceremonial law. "When the fullness of the time came, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under law, in order that he might redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons" (Gal. 4:4,5). What is in view here is redemption from the tutelary bondage of the Mosaic economy.[11] The people of God under the Old Testament were children of God by the divine adoption of grace. But they were as children under age, under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father (cf. Gal. 4:2). Of this tutelary, pedagogical discipline the Mosaic economy was the minister (cf. Gal. 3:23, 24).

Paul is contrasting this period of tutelage under the Mosaic Law with the full liberty bestowed upon all believers, whether Jews or Gentiles, under the gospel. This full liberty and privilege he calls the adoption of sons (Gal. 4:5). Christ came in order that this adoption might be secured. The consideration particularly relevant to the price paid for this redemption is the fact that Christ was made under law. He was born under the Mosaic Law; he was subjected to its conditions and he fulfilled its terms. In him the Mosaic Law realized its purpose, and its meaning received in him its permanent validity and embodiment. Consequently he redeemed from the relative and provisional bondage of which the Mosaic economy was the instrument.
 
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Deacon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
God's attributes display all of who he is, he doesn't get bigger; he doesn't change.

The question "Where does God's Wrath God?" touches upon two analogous attributes of God:

His Immutability - [it's touched upon a couple of times in this thread] God is unchanging, perfect in every way.

His Impassibility - God does not experience emotional change in any way.

The depth of God's wrath against evil and wickedness is as deep as his limitless love for his children.

God distributes punishment (wrath) for breaking his holy law; God's wrath originates from the attributes of God’s holiness, righteousness, and justice. Retributive justice is key to propitiation.

Out of love for his people, the Father sent his Son to substitute himself for the sinner in order to pay the penalty for the sinner’s transgressions—namely, the wrath of God. Scripture says Christ is the propitiation for our sins (Rom. 3:25; Heb. 2:17; 1 John 2:2; 4:10).

Rob
 

Zaatar71

Active Member
God's attributes display all of who he is, he doesn't get bigger; he doesn't change.

The question "Where does God's Wrath God?" touches upon two analogous attributes of God:

His Immutability - [it's touched upon a couple of times in this thread] God is unchanging, perfect in every way.

His Impassibility - God does not experience emotional change in any way.

The depth of God's wrath against evil and wickedness is as deep as his limitless love for his children.

God distributes punishment (wrath) for breaking his holy law; God's wrath originates from the attributes of God’s holiness, righteousness, and justice. Retributive justice is key to propitiation.

Out of love for his people, the Father sent his Son to substitute himself for the sinner in order to pay the penalty for the sinner’s transgressions—namely, the wrath of God. Scripture says Christ is the propitiation for our sins (Rom. 3:25; Heb. 2:17; 1 John 2:2; 4:10).

Rob
Yes Rob! You have expressed the mainstream historical view, which is based on what is written quite accurately. Thanks for this fine post!
 

Dave G

Well-Known Member
Recently @JesusFan asked this same question - If God does not visit His wrath upon Jesus, and we escape the wrath to come....where does that wrath go? What becomes of the wrath?

Here we need to turn to Scripture. The wrath of God is consistently directed against the wicked, against those who do not do His will. (Deuteronomy 1:26-46; Joshua 7:1; Psalm 2:1-6; Romans 1:18; John 3:36). At Judgment the wicked will experience God's wrath (Ecclesiastes 3:17; Matthew 13:49-50).
Agreed.
What happened, then, to the wrath that was at one time against us when we were wicked before we were forgiven?
I've seen many over the years who conclude that God's wrath was directed at those who would later believe;
But I don't see anywhere in His word that that wrath was ever against us.

Since I see the Scriptures declaring that those same people were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1 ) and whose names were written in the Book of Life at that point ( Revelation 17:8 ), I also see that they never had the wrath of God directed at them.
In other words, there was no point at which "the lost" went from being a goat to being a sheep, went from actually having the wrath of God directed at them to not, and went from being condemned and in danger of Hell fire to not being condemned for those same sins.

While Christ's sheep were "lost", He would always go looking for them.
While they were, by nature, the children of wrath, just as the vessels of wrath are... the vessels of mercy that were afore prepared unto glory were never under God's wrath.
 
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Charlie24

Well-Known Member
"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken."
( Isaiah 53:6-8 )

Dave I guess you're saying that "us all" is a specific group of people chosen by God, that Sovereign thing you have going on.

That bucket won't hold water and you know it. If that was your purpose in that post.
 

Dave G

Well-Known Member
That said, to answer the question that JF asked, " If God does not visit His wrath upon Jesus, and we escape the wrath to come....where does that wrath go? What becomes of the wrath?"


That wrath is something that is stored up for, and directed at, those who are not God's elect;
Those who are responsible for their behaviour towards a righteous and holy God, but that the Lord chooses not to show His grace and mercy towards.
God's elect are the recipients of His grace and mercy, and were never appointed to receive anything but that same grace and mercy:

" For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
" ( 1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 ).

That same appointment to eternal life that I see in Acts 13:48, that same predestination to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself that I see in Ephesians 1, and that same predestination to being conformed to the image of His Son that I see in Romans 8:29-30, has a corresponding "non-appointment"...

We are not appointed to God's wrath.
Rather, we have escaped it.


That is why I do not hold to the "PSA" theory.



God's wrath is the expression of God's anger...and His anger has an object and always has:
Sin and unrepentant sinners;

Not His sinless Son, nor the people that the Lord gave Him to save.
 

Dave G

Well-Known Member
It went to Christ, He is the bearer of sin for all mankind, if they will accept Him.

Isaiah 53:6

"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."
"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken." ( Isaiah 53:6-8 )
Given the greater context, who do you see as being the "us all", Charlie?
 

Zaatar71

Active Member
Agreed.

I've seen many over the years who conclude that God's wrath was directed at those who would later believe;
But I don't see anywhere in His word that that wrath was ever against us.

Since I see the Scriptures declaring that those same people were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1 ) and whose names were written in the Book of Life at that point ( Revelation 17:8 ), I also see that they never had the wrath of God directed at them.
In other words, there was no point at which "the lost" went from being a goat to being a sheep, went from actually having the wrath of God directed at them to not, and went from being condemned and in danger of Hell fire to not being condemned for those same sins.

While Christ's sheep were "lost", He would always go looking for them.
While they were, by nature, the children of wrath, just as the vessels of wrath are... the vessels of mercy that were afore prepared unto glory were never under God's wrath.


That said, to answer the question that JF asked, " If God does not visit His wrath upon Jesus, and we escape the wrath to come....where does that wrath go? What becomes of the wrath?"


That wrath is something that is stored up for, and directed at, those who are not God's elect;
Those who are responsible for their behaviour towards a righteous and holy God, but that the Lord chooses not to show His grace and mercy towards.
God's elect are the recipients of His grace and mercy, and were never appointed to receive anything but that same grace and mercy:

" For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
" ( 1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 ).

That same appointment to eternal life that I see in Acts 13:48, that same predestination to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself that I see in Ephesians 1, and that same predestination to being conformed to the image of His Son that I see in Romans 8:29-30, has a corresponding "non-appointment"...

We are not appointed to God's wrath.
Rather, we have escaped it.


That is why I do not hold to the "PSA" theory.



God's wrath is the expression of God's anger...and His anger has an object and always has:
Sin and unrepentant sinners;

Not His sinless Son, nor the people that the Lord gave Him to save.
Believers were at one time children of wrath, even as others...you seem to miss this!
Eph2:
2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

So the question remains....If all men were children of wrath... we know where that wrath went upon those who were unsaved,[second death} God justly punishing them...the question Jesus fan asked is, where did the wrath go against believers...we would say it went upon Jesus as the lamb of God slain, for His covenant children.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken." ( Isaiah 53:6-8 )
Given the greater context, who do you see as being the "us all", Charlie?

There's that misguided Sovereignty of God again.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
No Charlie, I don't know it.
As in other threads, how I see the word of God and understand it, is how I see it and understand it for myself.

Just as you honestly see it one way, I honestly see it the other.

It was.

I find it hard to believe that you can believe what you've been putting on the table.

I find it hard to believe that you have totally ignored all the contradictions I've laid on the table.

But of course you can believe whatever you like, but I hope better of you, Dave G.
 

Dave G

Well-Known Member
There's that misguided Sovereignty of God again.
Founded upon Romans 9, Charlie, and many other places that the Lord tells us who His elect really are.

Respectfully,
If I'm "misguided", as you say, then I have the right to be misguided.
You have the same right to state what you see, as I have;
The Lord will judge between us in that Day.

With that in mind, this is a forum... and the purpose of forums is to express individual viewpoints;
Is it not?

I told you in the Romans 9 thread how I see God's elect and why;
Because unlike some, I'm not carrying over from Romans 4 and other places the idea that God's mercy and grace are dependent upon man's response to His offer of salvation and His viewing one person's faith favorably, while viewing another's lack of it unfavorably.


I see man's response fully and completely dependent upon who God made men to be...
Either vessels of mercy, or vessels of wrath.
 
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Dave G

Well-Known Member
Vessels of wrath are those upon whom God's wrath rests and will always rest.
Vessels of mercy are those men and women upon whom God's wrath has never rested and will never rest.

To me, it really is that uncomplicated and simple.

That is why those who have believed on Christ for the forgiveness of their sins, and exhibit the evidence of His work in their hearts and in their minds, can truly look forward to being with His Son... and can truly rest in the fact that God is not angry with them for their sins.

We are at peace with God ( Romans 5:1 ).
 
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Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Founded upon Romans 9, Charlie, and many other places that the Lord tells us who His elect really are.

Respectfully,
If I'm "misguided", as you say, then I have the right to be misguided.
You have the same right to state what you see, as I have;
The Lord will judge between us in that Day.

With that in mind, this is a forum... and the purpose of forums is to express individual viewpoints;
Is it not?

I told you in the Romans 9 thread how I see God's elect and why;
Because unlike you, I'm not carrying over from Romans 4 and other places, the idea that God's mercy and grace are dependent upon man's response to His offer of salvation and His viewing one person's faith favorably, while viewing another's lack of it unfavorably.

I see man's response fully and completely dependent upon who God made men to be...
Either vessels of mercy, or vessels of wrath.

Ok, I get it, you've totally ignored my commentary on Rom. 9.

Not a single question on the contradictions, not a single question of detail.

And you can't even prove from Scripture the "all" Is who you say it is. It's just what your scholars say it is, right?
 

Dave G

Well-Known Member
Ok, I get it, you've totally ignored my commentary on Rom. 9.
No I did not.
What I did was to politely disagree with you, without ignoring anything you stated.
Not a single question on the contradictions, not a single question of detail.
If you'll go back and read it again, I specifically commented on where we disagree, Charlie, and I did so in detail.
That I didn't feel the need to question the details, indicated that I already knew ( or felt that I knew ) where the source of the misunderstanding between us, really was.
And you can't even prove from Scripture the "all" Is who you say it is.
Yes, Charlie, I can.
The difference is, there are enough statements in God's word that seem to contradict each other ( especially in the matter of the atonement ) , when taken all by themselves;

But when understood in context with all that is said about how, why and for whom the Lord Jesus took upon Himself flesh and became a man, suffering and dying for their sins, the subject becomes clearer...

At least for me and others like me.
It's just what your scholars say it is, right?
At some point I hope that people actually believe me when I say that I don't pay any attention to scholars or commentaries.
I read the Scriptures for myself, and what comes out is in no way influenced by any "camp".
 
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Dave G

Well-Known Member
@Charlie24:

Also, who are we as men to act as final authority towards anyone in matters of understanding?
We as believers have the Holy Spirit as our Teacher:

"But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [but he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also ].
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life.
26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. "
( 1 John 2:20-27 )

In the above,
I see that the same Holy Spirit that teaches us of all things ( and Who is given that we might know the things that are freely given to us by God, 1 Corinthians 2 ), also comforts us and bears witness with our spirit that we are the sons of God.

That means that no man can dictate to another how to read and understand the Scriptures ...
Not Baptists, not the RCC, not the Methodists, no institution of men, no one.
One must either be convinced of the truths of His word in their entirety and for themselves, or one is not.

It's up to the individual.
 
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Dave G

Well-Known Member
My point is, I feel that "Calvinists" have the right to declare what they see and why, and "Arminians" have the right to do the same.
"Wesleyans" / Churches of Christ, Catholics, etc have the same right to teach and preach what they see, as "Reformed", Presbyterians, "Soveriegn Grace Baptists" and others who agree with them, do.

No one has the right to get angry and to speak evil of men;
No one has the right to persecute, burn at the stake, "torture for being a heretic" or perform any heinous act towards another person or group of them...
For we are specifically commanded not to, by the Lord.

But each one has the right to separate themselves from whomever they feel is in error, and to fellowship with those that they believe are like-minded.
This is something that I've seen the reality of since long before I began to study God's word for myself.

However, I also see that this subject really deserves a thread of its own, as I am wandering from the subject of this one.
Let us return to that subject, shall we?


May God bless you sir.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
@Charlie24:

Also, who are we as men to act as final authority towards anyone in matters of understanding?
We as believers have the Holy Spirit as our Teacher:

"But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [but he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also ].
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life.
26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. "
( 1 John 2:20-27 )

In the above,
I see that the same Holy Spirit that teaches us of all things ( and Who is given that we might know the things that are freely given to us by God, 1 Corinthians 2 ), also comforts us and bears witness with our spirit that we are the sons of God.

That means that no man can dictate to another how to read and understand the Scriptures ...
Not Baptists, not the RCC, not the Methodists, no institution of men, no one.
One must either be convinced of the truths of His word in their entirety and for themselves, or one is not.

It's up to the individual.

Just trying to help. I would be terrified to face God knowing I placed Him as the God you proclaim.

There is no such thing as single predestination, it's double or it's nothing, and you know where that places God.

I'll leave you alone, Dave. We know where we stand.
 
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