Where does the Bible teach a pre-trib rapture?

[George Antonios]

There is more than one rapture.

The Old Testament prophets prophesied of a rapture during the tribulation.

Paul prophesied of a hitherto unrevealed rapture of the church (since the church itself had been unrevealed) before the tribulation.

As usual, not dividing the word of truth blinds a man to one of either side of the equation.

 

[canadyjd]

What I think the scriptures teach.

A man who denies what God says,…..I think God will probably judge him one day as a prophet and find him to be a liar……

One must believe the words.

Here’s what God’s Word says in Ephesians. The two groups, Jew and Gentiles, are made into one new man by the work of Jesus on the cross.

Do you believe the words of God?

Ephesians also teaches us that truth will demonstrate the grace of Christ, “in the ages to come”. It’s a permanent change. It can’t be undone.

Do you believe the words of Gods?

If you believe the words of God found in Ephesians, you must reject any doctrine that teaches there is a separate future for Israel and the Church.

Ignoring the passages doesn’t change the truth of God’s word. Questioning the salvation of those who disagree with you won’t change the truth of God’s word. Claiming you believe God will judge people liars that disagree with your theology; even though they quote scripture which disproves your theology; will not change the truth of scripture.

peace to you

 

[JD731]

From your thread “Defending dispensationalism….” Post #149 JD731 said:

“I won’t believe anything you say until you can prove it with scripture in context without conflicts to doctrine…”

You are saying you will not believe scripture in context if it conflicts with your doctrine.

That is why you cannot address the Ephesians passage which clearly states the two groups, Jew and Gentile have been made one new man by the work of Jesus on the cross and then says that truth will demonstrate the grace of Christ “in the ages to come”.

It destroys the dispensationalism belief in a separate future for Israel and the church.

Therefore, since scripture in context conflicts with your doctrine, you won’t believe it, and then accuse those who are quoting scripture in context of not reading or believing God’s word.

peace to you

You know, there are some things that are just plain silly, and this that you are advancing is one of them. The church of Jesus Christ, which had it's beginning with the conversion of Jewish believers at Pentecost, 50 days after the resurrection of Christ, and the inclusion of gentile believers some 10 years later as recorded in Acts 10,did not change the ethnicity of anyone. The largest portion of both Jews and gentiles remain unsaved from then to this very day and they remain Jews and gentiles. Jews and gentiles remain two group even after they are saved and this is easily proven by the fact that the Ephesian letter is defining the mystery of Christ which is both groups in one body who are equally the children of God and are the partakers of the spiritual blessings of the new covenant, which is the forgiveness of sins in the blood of Christ and the gift of the indwelling Spirit of God in the individual believer as well as the collective body.

Now, ithere are really a lot of ways to prove this (as if it needs proving) and I am not going to waste much time on it, but I will give you this.

Galatians was written in 49 AD. People quote the following verse and immediately ignore the context. Here it is.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye [be] Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Romans was written in 58 AD. That is 9 years after the book of Galatians.

Ephesians is the first of the prison epistles and was written from Rome in 60 AD.

Here is what Paul said in AD 58 about himself and about his physical Jewish brethren.

Ro 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.

Now, was Paul saved and a member of the church in AD 58? Answer this question yes or no.
Do you gather from this statement that he IS an israelite and his ethnicity had not changed though he had been saved for 21 years when he wrote this?
Do you gather from this statement that the people of God ARE Israelites?
Do you understand that God has not (present tense) cast away his people, the Israelites, because they as a people did not believe in Christ, their Messiah and savoir?
If you keep reading, will you grasp the fact that Israel, the people of God has been set aside and the remnant of Israel who believes is who God is dealing with in this age and
Will you believe from the text that gentile believers has been accepted by God to replace Israel in this age, or dispensation, and to fill up his house
And will you believe you have Jesus Christ saying it so clearly that it can only be missed by the most numb among us?

Lk 14:15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed [is] he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.
16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden (see Rom 10 here), Come; for all things are now ready.
18 And they all with one [consent] began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges (the gentiles), and compel [them] to come in, that my house may be filled.
24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

Verse 24 is the judicial blinding of the nation and her leaders.

11 I say then, Have they (Israel) stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them (Israel) to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles (following is what he says to us), inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, (for how long) until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

WHAT THEN?

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

This is the remnant who believes after the church is taken away and who manage to endure to the end of the tribulation. It is they who will be delivered and all the rebels will be left when God gathers them back to the land of Israel from the nations to which they were driven and after he establishes his kingdom on the earth, (one will be taken and the other left).

Here are some gentiles commanded to minister to Jews and note the reason. This is in AD 58 when you say there are no Jews and gentiles.

Rom 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

What you are preaching and prophesying here is false doctrine and it opposes what God clearly says, and make s no sense. It is illogical and unreasonable. I urge you to repent of such teaching. It is not too late.

 

[canadyjd]

You know, there are some things that are just plain silly, and this that you are advancing is one of them. The church of Jesus Christ, which had it's beginning with the conversion of Jewish believers at Pentecost, 50 days after the resurrection of Christ, and the inclusion of gentile believers some 10 years later as recorded in Acts 10,did not change the ethnicity of anyone. The largest portion of both Jews and gentiles remain unsaved from then to this very day and they remain Jews and gentiles. Jews and gentiles remain two group even after they are saved and this is easily proven by the fact that the Ephesian letter is defining the mystery of Christ which is both groups in one body who are equally the children of God and are the partakers of the spiritual blessings of the new covenant, which is the forgiveness of sins in the blood of Christ and the gift of the indwelling Spirit of God in the individual believer as well as the collective body.

Now, is really a lot of ways to prove this (as if it needs proving) and I am not going to waste much time on it, but I will give you this.

Galatians was written in 49 AD. People quote the following verse and immediately ignore the context. Here it is.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye [be] Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Romans was written in 58 AD. That is 9 years after the book of Galatians.

Ephesians is the first of the prison epistles and was written from Rome in 60 AD.

Here is what Paul said in AD 58 about himself and about his physical Jewish brethren.

Ro 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.

Now, was Paul saved and a member of the church in AD 58? Answer this question yes or no.
Do you gather from this statement that he IS an israelite and his ethnicity had not changed though he had been saved for 21 years when he wrote this?
Do you gather from this statement that the people of God ARE Israelites?
Do you understand that God has not (present tense) cast away his people, the Israelites, because they as a people did not believe in Christ, their Messiah and savoir?
If you keep reading, will you grasp the fact that Israel, the people of God has been set aside and the remnant of Israel who believes is who God is dealing with in this age and
Will you believe from the text that gentile believers has been accepted by God to replace Israel and to fill up his house
And will you believe you have Jesus Christ saying it so clearly that it can only be missed by the most numb among us?

Lk 14:15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed [is] he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.
16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden (see Rom 10 here), Come; for all things are now ready.
18 And they all with one [consent] began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges (the gentiles), and compel [them] to come in, that my house may be filled.
24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

Verse 24 is the judicial blinding of the nation and her leaders.

11 I say then, Have they (Israel) stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them (Israel) to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles (following is what he says to us), inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, (for how long) until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

WHAT THEN?

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

This is the remnant who believes after the church is taken away and who manage to endure to the end of the tribulation. It is they who will be delivered and all the rebels will be left when God gathers them back to the land of Israel from the nations to which they were driven and after he establishes his kingdom on the earth, (one will be taken and the other left).

Here are some gentiles commanded to minister to Jews and note the reason. This is in AD 58 when you say there are no Jews and gentiles.

Rom 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

What you are preaching and prophesying here is false doctrine and it opposes what God clearly says, and make s no sense. It is illogical and unreasonable. I urge you to repent of such teaching. It is not too late.

Romans does not say the veil is lifted from the Jews after the church is raptured. Like most of your doctrine, it is read into the passage.

Romans tells us the veil is lifted after the fullness of the Gentiles has come to pass. And thus “all Israel shall be saved”. The argument Paul is making is that ,

(1.)generally speaking, Jews are blind to the truth of Jesus as Messiah. this has resulted in the gospel going to the Gentiles

(2). The “children of the promise” are those among Jews and Gentiles that shall be saved by faith in Christ. They are the true Israel.

(3). When every gentile that has been chosen by God for salvation comes to faith in Christ, the veil of unbelief shall be lifted and there will be widespread recognition among Jews that Jesus is Messiah.

And thus, all Israel (the Israel of God, both Jew and Gentile) shall be saved.

Nothing about a separate future for Israel and the church.

What is clear to me is that we will not agree, and you will continue your snide remarks accusing those who disagree with you of not believing God’s Word.

With such comments, no respectful dialogue is possible.

And so, I’ll leave you to it

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

 

[JD731]

Romans does not say the veil is lifted from the Jews after the church is raptured. Like most of your doctrine, it is read into the passage.

Romans tells us the veil is lifted after the fullness of the Gentiles has come to pass. And thus “all Israel shall be saved”. The argument Paul is making is that ,

(1.)generally speaking, Jews are blind to the truth of Jesus as Messiah. this has resulted in the gospel going to the Gentiles

(2). The “children of the promise” are those among Jews and Gentiles that shall be saved by faith in Christ. They are the true Israel.

(3). When every gentile that has been chosen by God for salvation comes to faith in Christ, the veil of unbelief shall be lifted and there will be widespread recognition among Jews that Jesus is Messiah.

And thus, all Israel (the Israel of God, both Jew and Gentile) shall be saved.

Nothing about a separate future for Israel and the church.

What is clear to me is that we will not agree, and you will continue your snide remarks accusing those who disagree with you of not believing God’s Word.

With such comments, no respectful dialogue is possible.

And so, I’ll leave you to it

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

There is no hope for someone who refuses to believe the words that are in front of their eyes. Paul was not speaking generally, he was very specific. He said the reason the gentiles were included is because Israel, to whom the promise was given would not believe. The cause was to fill up his house. The house of Christ is a real thing. It is a family. It is a building. It was the intention of God, according to his OT prophets, for the Spirit to Indwell Israel as his Son, which would require every one of them to be born again of the Spirit he gave them on the basis of their faith in Christ who paid their sin debt in his on body on the cross.

1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses [was faithful] in all his house.
3 For this [man] was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some [man]; but he that built all things [is] God.
5 And Moses verily [was] faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in [their] heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

The end he is speaking of here is the end of the generation that had the responsibility to receive Jesus Christ. It is the generation of Jesus Christ, which would have ended in 70 AD, the year the Romans dispersed the nation of Judah into the nations causing them to lose their national identity. Since that day the church has taken on a gentile character, the Jews being cut off from their land and their covenants.

The warning here is that this generation as well will not enter into their rest, their kingdom, for the same reason, unbelief. This turned out to be true and history that we can read today proves it.

Mt 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.



Ps 90:10 The days of our years [are] threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength [they be] fourscore years, yet [is] their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

Here is what God says about his people Israel. You, of course will disagree.

35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, [and] the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts [is] his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, [then] the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

There is context to the above. I suggest you search it out.

 

[canadyjd]

There is no hope for someone who refuses to believe the words that are in front of their eyes. Paul was not speaking generally, he was very specific. He said the reason the gentiles were included is because Israel, to whom the promise was given would not believe. The cause was to fill up his house. The house of Christ is a real thing. It is a family. It is a building. It was the intention of God, according to his OT prophets, for the Spirit to Indwell Israel as his Son, which would require every one of them to be born again of the Spirit he gave them on the basis of their faith in Christ who paid their sin debt in his on body on the cross.

1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses [was faithful] in all his house.
3 For this [man] was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some [man]; but he that built all things [is] God.
5 And Moses verily [was] faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in [their] heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

The end he is speaking of here is the end of the generation that had the responsibility to receive Jesus Christ. It is the generation of Jesus Christ, which would have ended in 70 AD, the year the Romans dispersed the nation of Judah into the nations causing them to lose their national identity. Since that day the church has taken on a gentile character, the Jews being cut off from their land and their covenants.

The warning here is that this generation as well will not enter into their rest, their kingdom, for the same reason, unbelief. This turned out to be true and history that we can read today proves it.

Mt 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.



Ps 90:10 The days of our years [are] threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength [they be] fourscore years, yet [is] their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

Here is what God says about his people Israel. You, of course will disagree.

35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, [and] the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts [is] his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, [then] the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

There is context to the above. I suggest you search it out.

You have plainly stated you will not believe scripture in context if it conflicts with your doctrine.

As you stated, “There is no hope for someone…” who refuses to believe scripture in context when it conflicts with there doctrine.

There is no separate future for Israel and the church, according to scripture in context.

There is a context to Ephesians, you should seek it out.

peace to you

 

[JD731]

You have plainly stated you will not believe scripture in context if it conflicts with your doctrine.

As you stated, “There is no hope for someone…” who refuses to believe scripture in context when it conflicts with there doctrine.

There is no separate future for Israel and the church, according to scripture in context.

There is a context to Ephesians, you should seek it out.

peace to you

I said the following quote earlier in our conversation and gave some inaccurate information. I will correct it following the quote.

A man who denies what God says, like he will be King over all the earth at the same time he is King on the earth, and that he will take his throne after he eliminates every rebel off the earth in a short time frame of 3.5 years that he calls "the day of the Lord," which he describes in 12 bible books, beginning at Isaiah and going through 2 Peter, a time of over 800 years, that he describes as the wrath of God and his indignation, and his vengeance against certain sinners, all in the future while saying specifically and unequivocally that his church, his body and bride, will be delivered from the wrath to come, is presenting himself as a prophet of God and saying he has been sent to change what God has previously said and has written in his book. I think God will probably judge him one day as a prophet and find him to be a liar.

Actually, the phrase "day of the LORD" is found in 17 books of the bible and by 12 different authors, beginning with Isaiah and ending with Peter in 2 Peter. It is always future and it is always dealing with judgement of God. In every instance except the mentioning of it in the Pauline epistles, it is the wrath of God that is on display in this judgement. Concerning the church of Jesus Christ, which is also a judgement, it takes place in heaven at what the scriptures call the judgement for rewards or lack of rewards. Fire is involved in this judgement but it is associated with our works and not our person. Here is what I mean.

1Co 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who [is] Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, [ye are] God’s building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The millennial rewards of each believer are predicated upon his labors as being in the yoke with God.

Ro 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

WHEN?

2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, (the rapture)
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

(He is speaking to the church about the man of sin - see the rest of the chapter).
It is the same time period as the Day of the Lord on earth. For the church it is not a judgement in wrath. Two places, two subsets of people, for two reasons, same time frame.

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
2Co 1:14 As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also [are] ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The phrase day of the Lord is in the bible 30 times in 29 verses, meaning it is in one verse twice. In Rev 1 John said he was on the isle of Patmos "on the Lord's day, which can only mean that while it had always been spoken of as a future event, now it was here, prophetically speaking. He said later that the day of his wrath is come, present tense. So, we are seeing in the revelation the fiery judgement of God upon the earth just before he comes to establish his rule and Kingship over all the earth that remains, which he says will be few in number.

Now, to deal with a couple of your points.

You have plainly stated you will not believe scripture in context if it conflicts with your doctrine.

you cannot read my comments any better than you can read the scriptures.

As you stated, “There is no hope for someone…” who refuses to believe scripture in context when it conflicts with there doctrine.

I meant it. if one is faithful to context there will be no conflict. This is the reason you are making embarrassingly silly comments and will not repent of it.

 

[canadyjd]

…..

1Co 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who [is] Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, [ye are] God’s building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The millennial rewards of each believer are predicated upon his labors as being in the yoke with God.

Ro 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

WHEN?

2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, (the rapture)
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

(He is speaking to the church about the man of sin - see the rest of the chapter).
It is the same time period as the Day of the Lord on earth. For the church it is not a judgement in wrath. Two places, two subsets of people, for two reasons, same time frame.

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus…..

you cannot read my comments any better than you can read the scriptures.

I meant it. if one is faithful to context there will be no conflict. This is the reason you are making embarrassingly silly comments and will not repent of it.

You are reading your doctrine into the passage of 1 Cor:3

The context is church leadership, and the Corinthians breaking into factions. “Each man’s work” is not referring to all believers, but to those who chose leadership. The “work” is the followers. The trial by fire is persecution (a theme found throughout both Corinthian letters)

Paul is telling the leaders of those factions they can lay no other foundation than Jesus Christ and Him crucified. He assures them they, and their followers, will be tested by fire (persecution) and to the extent their followers remain faithful to Jesus Christ in the midst of this persecution, will be the reward they receive. If their followers fall away due to persecution, they will have, as leaders, failed but their salvation will not fail.

FTR, I quoted your own words and yes, they are a silly reflection of a silly mindset that puts doctrine first and scripture in context second. I have nothing to repent of concerning pointing out your error. I find no joy in it.

There is no way to read your doctrine into the Ephesians passage which clearly states Jew and Gentile have been brought together as one new man by the cross of Christ and that truth Demonstrates the grace of Christ “in the ages to come”. It never ends. It cannot be undone. There is no separate future for Israel and the Church. You have no answer, so you accuse me of not being able to read.

Yes, very silly indeed.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

The 1 Cor 3 passage is quite applicable to our discussion.

One element of dispensationalism is the “pre-tribulation rapture” of believers. Jesus repeatedly warned His followers of the persecution to come. Almost every letter in the New Testament warns of persecution and of standing firm in the faith when it comes.

Jesus also warned of a great “apostasy” a “falling away” of believers during persecution. Some professing Christians will betray other Christians to avoid persecution.

I believe scripture very clearly teaches a post-tribulation rapture.

If I’m wrong, thank you Lord Jesus. If I’m right, all those holding to dispensational belief of pre-trib rapture are going to wonder why tens of millions of believers didn’t vanish from the earth. Of why they are part of widespread persecution. They will be unprepared for the persecution. Their faith will be rocked, and some will be among the many who fall away into apostasy.

According to 1 Cor 3, all those teachers that failed to prepare their followers for the persecution will suffer great loss. Remember, Paul says whatever they teach beyond Christ and Him crucified, will be tested by the fire of persecution. If their followers falter, the teachers suffer great loss at the judgement.

peace to you

 

[Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin]

I think either a Pre-Trib or Post-Trib rapture is possible. I hope for a Pre-Trib and prepare for a Post-Trib.

Got a massive pantry with 6 month supply of canned veggies for a family of 4, 3 freezers, 2 fridges, and 500+ poultry "on hoof". I buy my feed by the ton so I'm always 2 months+ ahead. I reckon I'd be derelectin my duty to my family if I didn't, even moreso if I didn't spiritually prepare.

Also helps when we get stuck in the house up here for a week or two.

 

[Dave G]

The rapture happens at the end of the world after the resurrection according to Jesus and Paul.

The "rapture" includes the first resurrection, Dave.

If the pretrib-rapturists can't find bible support for their scheme, what makes you think you can?

Respectfully,
I gave you the passages that show that after the tribulation the Lord sends His angels to gather His elect from Heaven and from the earth.
Add Luke 21 to Matthew 24 and Mark 13, and I believe that that is enough of a composite picture to give you the answers.

Plug in what Paul told the Thessalonians about not all of us sleeping, but all of us changing...
When?
At the last trump:

" For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words." ( 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 ).

But for added support,
When does the "rapture" ( catching away ) take place?

" Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." ( Matthew 24:29-31 ).

He sends His angels to gather His elect, after the tribulation...not before.

 

[1689Dave]

The "rapture" includes the first resurrection, Dave.

Respectfully,
I gave you the passages that show that after the tribulation the Lord sends His angels to gather His elect from Heaven and from the earth.
Add Luke 21 to Matthew 24 and Mark 13, and I believe that that is enough of a composite picture to give you the answers.

Plug in what Paul told the Thessalonians about not all of us sleeping, but all of us changing...
When?
At the last trump:

" For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words." ( 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 ).

But for added support,
When does the "rapture" ( catching away ) take place?

" Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." ( Matthew 24:29-31 ).

He sends His angels to gather His elect, after the tribulation...not before.

You are importing Phariseeism into Christianity and like them, rejecting Christ's gospel of the Kingdom. You need to stand back and reassess your position. There is NO millennium. It is Phariseeism as it stands after God blinded them so they could not know the truth.

 

[Revmitchell]

The 1 Cor 3 passage is quite applicable to our discussion.

One element of dispensationalism is the “pre-tribulation rapture” of believers. Jesus repeatedly warned His followers of the persecution to come. Almost every letter in the New Testament warns of persecution and of standing firm in the faith when it comes.

Jesus also warned of a great “apostasy” a “falling away” of believers during persecution. Some professing Christians will betray other Christians to avoid persecution.

I believe scripture very clearly teaches a post-tribulation rapture.

If I’m wrong, thank you Lord Jesus. If I’m right, all those holding to dispensational belief of pre-trib rapture are going to wonder why tens of millions of believers didn’t vanish from the earth. Of why they are part of widespread persecution. They will be unprepared for the persecution. Their faith will be rocked, and some will be among the many who fall away into apostasy.

According to 1 Cor 3, all those teachers that failed to prepare their followers for the persecution will suffer great loss. Remember, Paul says whatever they teach beyond Christ and Him crucified, will be tested by the fire of persecution. If their followers falter, the teachers suffer great loss at the judgement.

peace to you

The problem is you are conflating a general sense of persecution with the tribulation. The latter has its very own purpose and the church is not part of that.

 

[Dave G]

You are importing Phariseeism into Christianity and like them, rejecting Christ's gospel of the Kingdom.

I wouldn't even know how to "import Pharaseeism" into my studies, Dave, as I have no idea what you're talking about.
I'm simply reading my Bible and telling you what I see there.

I am taking the prophecies in places like Zechariah 10 through Zechariah 14, Micah 4, Isaiah 2 and many others, and combining them with the words of Revelation 19 and Revelation 20, knowing that they will be literally fulfilled the same as the ones pertaining to His first coming.

If we disagree, then we disagree.


Good morning to you.

 

[1689Dave]

I wouldn't even know how to "import Pharaseeism" into my studies, Dave, as I have no idea what you're talking about.
I'm simply reading my Bible and telling you what I see there.

I am taking the prophecies in places like Zechariah 10 through Zechariah 14, Micah 4, Isaiah 2 and many others, and combining them with the words of Revelation 19 and Revelation 20, knowing that they will be literally fulfilled the same as the ones pertaining to His first coming.

If we disagree, then we disagree.


Good morning to you.

You need to study the gospel of the kingdom in the gospels. It disproved the Pharisees Millennial theory. You will never understand Christ until you see the differences between the Pharisee's millennial teachings and the gospel of the kingdom.

 

[Dave G]

You need to study the gospel of the kingdom in the gospels

Would that be the same Gospel that Peter, Paul and the Lord Jesus preached?If so, then the Lord answered the apostles in Acts of the Apostles 1:6-7 according to the prophecies of Zechariah, etc. and I notice that he did nothing to dispel the idea that it would be literally fulfilled when He answered them.

They asked Him when He would restore it, and He told them that it was not for them to know the times or the seasons, but that it was in the hand of God the Father.

You will never understand Christ until you see the differences between the Pharisee's millennial teachings and the gospel of the kingdom.

I understand my Saviour very well, Dave...
But it was not always so, as it has taken time for Him to show me what He has.

On a side note, what you refer to as "Phariseeism" is what I know as seeking to find favor with God through the works of the Law, and not through faith and the finished work of Christ on the cross.
Where you've come up with this term to describe the Bible's teaching of Christ restoring the kingdom to Israel in fulfillment of what was said to the prophets, I do not know.

I believe in a "millennium" because Revelation 20 defines it as a period of 1,000 years where believers will rule and reign with Him at Jerusalem, and that will occur before the final Judgment.
However, that is not the subject of this thread...

When the "rapture" takes place, is, and I believe that I have shown the Scriptures that pertain to it.



That said, I think it best that we don't interact with one another on this subject, as you and I see the words of Scripture entirely differently.

Again, good morning to you;
I wish you well, and may God bless you in many ways.

 

[1689Dave]

Would that be the same Gospel that Peter, Paul and the Lord Jesus preached?If so, then the Lord answered the apostles in Acts of the Apostles 1:6 according to the prophecies of Zechariah, etc.

I understand my Saviour very well, Dave...
But it was not always so, as it has taken time for Him to show me what He has.

On a side note, what you refer to as "Phariseeism" is what I know as seeking to find favor with God through the works of the Law, and not through faith and the finished work of Christ on the cross.
Where you've come up with this term to describe the Bible's teaching of Christ restoring the kingdom to Israel in fulfillment of what was said to the prophets, I do not know.


That said, I think it best that we don't interact with one another on this subject, as you and I see the words of Scripture entirely differently.

Again, good morning to you.

If you look up "kingdom" it's all the same gospel of the kingdom preached by all. Especially look at Peter's sermon in Acts 2. It combines the death, burial, and resurrection with Jesus' present reign from David's throne in heaven since his resurrection. Paul says he must reign (Now) until he defeats death (at the end of the world.)

 

[1689Dave]

I believe in a "millennium" because Revelation 20 defines it as a period of 1,000 years where believers will rule and reign with Him at Jerusalem, and that will occur before the final Judgment.

If you discover that Revelation is a book of symbols not to be taken literally, 1000 = a long time. It also is called "the binding of Satan". Samson killed 1000 Philistines. Was that literal? Or a term like oodles of Philistines?

God owns the cattle on 1000 hills. Literally? If so who owns the rest?

 

[canadyjd]

The problem is you are conflating a general sense of persecution with the tribulation. The latter has its very own purpose and the church is not part of that.

I can appreciate that view. I hope your right, but I don’t think scripture supports it. When does tribulation refer to anything other than persecution of God’s people?

It is inconsistent, imo, with Jesus’s warning in Matthew 24 of this great tribulation that the believers do endure. Afterward, Jesus returns and the elect are gathered. Hard to conceive this tribulation is not the “great tribulation”.

Also, why all the warnings to endure persecution; that those enduring faithfully to the end will be saved; the warning of the apostasy, the falling away of professing Christians due to persecution? Why the warnings if the church will not endure the “great tribulation” which has the purpose of separating wheat from tares, goats from sheep’s.

The “great tribulation” of the church will reveal God’s children.

Thanks for the comment

peace to you

 

[37818]

There is more than one rapture.

Not according to 1 Thessalonians 4:15.