Where Is Free Will?

[Reynolds]

That was never the question.

Well then He knows who will be saved.

 

[Reformed1689]

Well then He knows who will be saved.

Of course he does, because he chose them.

 

[Reynolds]

No. But that isn't the point. I think the doctrine of salvation and what you believe about it determines your view of who God is.

Maybe how I relate to Him, but not who He is.

 

[Reformed1689]

Maybe how I relate to Him, but not who He is.

We will have to agree to disagree on that.

 

[Reynolds]

Of course he does, because he chose them.

As I have told you before, the only area we disagree on is unconditional election and irresistible grace. I really do not see why those are 2 points. They should be a single point.

 

[Reformed1689]

As I have told you before, the only area we disagree on is unconditional election and irresistible grace. I really do not see why those are 2 points. They should be a single point.

They actually are two different things but that is for another conversation.

 

[Reynolds]

They actually are two different things but that is for another conversation.

They are the same thing happening at different times.

 

[Reformed1689]

They are the same thing happening at different times.

No it is more nuanced than that.

 

[Reynolds]

Cage-Stage Calvinism: What Is It and What Causes It?

That's funny.

 

[Reynolds]

No it is more nuanced than that.

And "P" should be lumped in as well. They all 3 COMPLETELY hang on each other. (Even though Calvin himself seemed a bit insecure about "P".)

 

[Reformed1689]

And "P" should be lumped in as well. They all 3 COMPLETELY hang on each other. (Even though Calvin himself seemed a bit insecure about "P".)

All five hang on each other.

 

[Reynolds]

All five hang on each other.

Loosely. Those 3 are tightly entangled.

 

[SovereignGrace]

No, and neither is SovereignGrace in the his example of seeing a bus crash 500 years in the future.

And I'd rather you didn't put words in my mouth. (I know how much you like it yourself.)

What I meant was that if I was God(and I am not) and I knew a bus crash was going to happen 500 years from now, that bus crash would happen. If God knows something is to happen, it HAS TO happen.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Now that is an interesting. While the mode of divine knowledge has been argued to be the same (between Arminianism and Open Theism, not "non-Calvinism" and Open Theism), I've never seen anyone go so far as to even suggest that the default position to non-Calvinism is open theism.

Are you able to defend the claim?

Look at how they handle the Ninevah account for example.

 

[SovereignGrace]

And what is your definition of "foreknew"?

Because in SovereignGrace's example there is no difference in meaning between foreknew and foresaw.

There is prognosis and prognosko that are used for foreknowledge. Prognosis is 'foreknowledge' in Acts of the Apostles 2:23 and 1 Peter 1:2. Proginosko is 'foreknew' in Romans 8:28 and Romans 11:2.

Prognosis is a noun and it means to know beforehand, pre-arrangement.
Proginosko is a verb and it means to know beforehand, to appoint, to determine beforehand, to foreordain.

God foresaw His elect because He foreknew them. Foreknew in the Greek, again is a verb, so it means God is doing something in foreknowing them.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Let's explore this analogy.

Did God cause the bus crash?
Did God allow it to happen?

Why is it wrong for Arminians to say God predestined those to salvation that he saw were going to believe in him?
For those God foreknew he also predestined... Romans 8:29

I would say God caused it. However, God uses primary and secondary causes to have things come to pass.

Remember, God stirred up two kings in 1 Chronicles 5:26 to attack the Jews.
God sent an evil spirit upon Saul.
God sent Satan to afflict Job.
God put Jehoiakim into Nebuchadnezzar's hands.

Then read Deuteronomy 28 read all the times it says 'The Lord will send upon you curses', 'The Lord shall cause', in that chapter.

 

[SovereignGrace]

God looked down through the corridors of time and saw that Adam would sin, so he was predestined to sin. Got it.

God did not look down through time to see anything. If that were true, then He gained knowledge and in not omniscient.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Again, God looked down through the corridors of time and saw that Saul would choose to follow him.

If God had to look and see if Saul would, then He gained knowledge and is not omniscient.

 

[SovereignGrace]

So God looks down through the corridors of time and sees that a bus will crash, so he predetermined that it would crash.

Similarly, God looks down through the corridors of time and sees who will believe in Him, so he predestines them to be elect. Right? Why not?

Because those He knew would be saved, He chose them from before the creation of time. He knew they would be saved because He chose them before they had done anything good or bad. That is how Romans 9:13 shows this to be true.

 

[SovereignGrace]

No, that's like you are "sic" in the head. God was telling Satan He had a servant who Satan couldn't defeat.

And God allowed him to attack Job. However, He only gave him so much leeway.