Didn't God send the evil spirit to trouble Saul? The evil spirit was the one who troubled Saul, but God was active in sending it to Saul.
Secondary cause here.
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Where Is Free Will?
- Thread starter Reformed1689
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Didn't God send the evil spirit to trouble Saul? The evil spirit was the one who troubled Saul, but God was active in sending it to Saul.
Secondary cause here.
Well, look at Saul of Tarsus. In the Romans 9 debate between Dr. Flowers and Dr. White, White asked Flowers if Saul was able to reject the Christ. He said he was able but not willing. Dr. White then said that if God knew Saul would be willing, then Saul could not reject. Dr. Flowers then said that was for William Layne Craig to answer. Dr. White said he wouldn't answer that question either.
If men's will is truly free, then God doesn't truly know until they choose Him. Free will is voluntary choice or decision, freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention. If their will is truly free, then its unimpeded by God and He can not truly know their outcome until it comes to pass. Open theism(possibly molinism too) is their default position, imo.
Yes, but you cannot say that it is "open theism". Sometimes people "enter" the narrative. Scripture actually handled the Ninevah account the same way with Jonah, if you think about it.
The "mode of divine knowledge" is the same (I believe). BUT the actual nature of omniscience is not. This is why the "logical conclusion" of Arminianism is not Open Theism. Insofar as "non-Calvinists", this is much too large a category. There are non-Calvinists who hold an idea of divine predestination that would deny both Open Theism and Arminianism.
Well, most ppl call themselves Arminians who are not Arminians these days.
"Allowed" being the key word.
And most people who call themselves Calvinists are not true Calvinists.
However, God still decreed it. He uses primary and secondary causes.
Uses, not causes. Decree? No.
SovereignGrace said:
SovereignGrace said:
You might not realize it, but you're saying two different things.
When you say "God knew Adam would do it (sin) you are implying that he had foreknowledge of it but didn't cause it to happen. That must mean that God saw what Adam would do and allowed it to happen.
SovereignGrace said:
Again, you are saying two different things. God knew Saul of Tarsus would choose to follow Him, so Saul did so. That implies that God foreknew (looked down through the corridors of time) Saul's conversion but didn't make it happen.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Word study is needed for you on the word foreknew because you clearly do not know what it means. It has nothing to do with looking down the corridors of time.
I am confused by your statements.
Therefore, in an attempt to clarify my position that Jesus does not "know" everyone, I will put Mat 7:23 in context.
Mat 7:21 KJV - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 KJV - Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 KJV - And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Who says "I never know you"? Jesus
From whom are they to depart? Jesus
yes, I
Mat 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Departfrom me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
but foreknow and knew it is not just the word for previous knowledge , because God know all, Foreknow, is the same as previous relationship, like sexual relationship or I knew you
Rom 11:2
God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
2Pe 3:17
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these thingsbefore, G4267 beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
I subscribe to the pre existance of the human soul that is assigned a body from this verse
Heb 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
and many others.
I never asserted that "looking down the corridors of time" is my position on the issue. I'm stating that SovereignGrace is taking that position, whether deliberately or inadvertently.
The crux of the issue is: Did God CAUSE Adam to sin? Or did God KNOW that Adam would sin?
Please explain your position.
Changing the meaning of words is usual tactic of Calvinists to make their theology work for them.
And saying "in the Greek there is a nuance........"
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Name one word I have changed the meaning of. Just one.
If you don't know there are nuances in Greek you must not have studied Greek and are ignorant to the topic.
LOL! You started an entire thread on it.
Let's Talk About The Word Draw..
Once again,
The crux of the issue is: Did God CAUSE Adam to sin? Or did God KNOW that Adam would sin?
Please explain your position.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
And how did I change the definition? Oh wait, I didn't. I corrected your incorrect definition. I actually used dictionaries and lexicons you used...I'm not sure.
Once again,
The crux of the issue is: Did God CAUSE Adam to sin? Or did God KNOW that Adam would sin?
Please explain your position.
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