Where is it in the Bible

[Moriah]

Where is the scripture that says, “All humans are born totally depraved”? Please quote just one scripture. The one scripture has to say it simply and plainly, it cannot merely sound like it. It cannot be an assumption, but a clear and direct statement.

 

[convicted1]

Where is the scripture that says, “All humans are born totally depraved”? Please quote just one scripture. The one scripture has to say it simply and plainly, it cannot merely sound like it. It cannot be an assumption, but a clear and direct statement.

I, too, will be waiting ..........

 

[Moriah]

I, too, will be waiting ..........

Do you believe in total depravity? Do you believe the Word of God says that in the Bible?

 

[convicted1]

Do you believe in total depravity? Do you believe the Word of God says that in the Bible?

I do believe we become totally depraved after God imputes/accounts sin unto us. But we are born spiritually alive, and then die after sin is accounted unto us. What I mean by totally depraved is that we can't save ourselves, and that He must first call us before we will come. The call will go to all the lost. Only those who reply to His call will be saved. Does this answer your question?

 

[Moriah]

I do believe we become totally depraved after God imputes/accounts sin unto us. But we are born spiritually alive, and then die after sin is accounted unto us. What I mean by totally depraved is that we can't save ourselves, and that He must first call us before we will come. The call will go to all the lost. Only those who reply to His call will be saved. Does this answer your question?

Thank you for explaining. I would like more information. Do you believe God must save you first and make you born again before you can believe?

 

[David Lamb]

In order to answer your question, I would need to know (briefly) what you, Moriah, understand by the phrase "Total Depravity".

For example, if you are using it to mean something like: "Every human being who has ever lived is as derpraved as he/she could possibly be," then I would say that such a notion isn't in the bible. Indeed, quite the opposite is true, for Jesus said in Matthew 7.9-11:

"9 Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!"
​

On the other hand, if you mean by it that every aspect of our lives is tainted by sin, that would be a different matter entirely.

Or, of course, you may mean neither of those things.

 

[convicted1]

Thank you for explaining. I would like more information. Do you believe God must save you first and make you born again before you can believe?

If you mean pre-faith regeneration, then no. Believing in the Son is necessary before anyone can be saved. IOW, you can't be saved until you believe.

 

[The Biblicist]

In order to answer your question, I would need to know (briefly) what you, Moriah, understand by the phrase "Total Depravity".

For example, if you are using it to mean something like: "Every human being who has ever lived is as derpraved as he/she could possibly be," then I would say that such a notion isn't in the bible. Indeed, quite the opposite is true, for Jesus said in Matthew 7.9-11:

"9 Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!"
​

On the other hand, if you mean by it that every aspect of our lives is tainted by sin, that would be a different matter entirely.

Or, of course, you may mean neither of those things.

The Bible teaches that the carnal mindset is at war with God and will not subject itself to God's Law - Rom. 8:7 "Neither indeed can be"

The Bible teaches that the carnal mind is incapable of understanding spiritual things - 1 Cor. 2:14 "Neither can he know them"

The Bible teaches that other than Jesus Christ there is "no flesh" not one human being that God regards as "good" or "righteous" in "all the world" - Rom. 3:10-11, 19-20.

The Bible teaches that no man has ability to come to Christ in faith except it is given unto him by the Father - John 6:64-65. "No man CAN come to me except..."

The Bible teaches that there is nothing "good" in the flesh (Rom. 7:18).

The Bible teaches that men come into the world condemned already because they love darkness and hate the light and will not come to the light (Jn. 3:18-20).

The Bible teaches that man is as incapable of changing his inclination to evil as the lepord is incapable of changing his spots and the Ethiopion is incapble of changing the color of his skin as all these things are characteristic of each from birth by nature - Jer. 13:23

The Bible teaches that all men are sinners by nature from the womb - Isa. 48:8; Psa. 51:3; Job 14:1-4; 15:14; 25:23; etc.

However, you are not interested in the scriptures at all. You are simply so full of venom against the truth and you simply want an opportunity to vent your venom regardless of what the Scriptures teach.

 

[SolaSaint]

Romans 3:23 tells us we all are sinners and come short of God's glory. As Brother David asked, it depends on what you mean by "Totally depraved". This doesn't mean you are as bad as you can be.

I'm assuming you don't believe we are born with original sin. I must ask then can a person be saved w/o Christ?

 

[DaChaser1]

I do believe we become totally depraved after God imputes/accounts sin unto us. But we are born spiritually alive, and then die after sin is accounted unto us. What I mean by totally depraved is that we can't save ourselves, and that He must first call us before we will come. The call will go to all the lost. Only those who reply to His call will be saved. Does this answer your question?

in order to be 'spirituall alive", one MUST have been born again/justified/reconciled back to God...

You hold to humans are born in that state, and than lose it when we sin, and get it back when born again again?

 

[DaChaser1]

Romans 3:23 tells us we all are sinners and come short of God's glory. As Brother David asked, it depends on what you mean by "Totally depraved". This doesn't mean you are as bad as you can be.

I'm assuming you don't believe we are born with original sin. I must ask then can a person be saved w/o Christ?

how about Isaiah AND Paul believing that NONE are rightousness, NONE seeks after the Lord by themselves, ALL have gone astray?

 

[Crabtownboy]

Total depravity cannot be found in the Bible. This believe came into Christianity from Gnosticism via St. Augustine and then Calvin. I doubt that Calvin knew that Augustine brought this believe into Christianity from his years as a Gnostic. Calvin was a great admirer of Augustine.

Gnostics also believed that mankind was wholly evil and some sects even renounced marriage and procreation. They also believed in two gods, one evil god and one good god. Their teachings are believed to have influenced Saint Augustine in the development of his theology of "total depravity" of mankind and concept of God. For nine years St. Augustine adhered to Manichaeism, a Persian philosophy proclaimed in southern Babylonia (Iraq) that taught a doctrine of "total depravity" and the claim that they were the "elect."
http://www.allaboutreligion.org/gnostic-christianity-faq.htm

 

[DaChaser1]

Total depravity cannot be found in the Bible. This believe came into Christianity from Gnosticism via St. Augustine and then Calvin. I doubt that Calvin knew that Augustine brought this believe into Christianity from his years as a Gnostic. Calvin was a great admirer of Augustine.

Nope!

Just as trinity was a concept found in the scriptures and labeled with a name when recognized by such by church...

Same fashion, this concept throughout the scriptures, and was given a name later on!

 

[Crabtownboy]

Nope!

Just as trinity was a concept found in the scriptures and labeled with a name when recognized by such by church...

Same fashion, this concept throughout the scriptures, and was given a name later on!

I understand your point, but I do not believe is applies here. It is quite easy to see the concept of the trinity even though the word is not used in scripture.

Having said that, I do not believe the concept of total depravity can be found in the Bible. It is easily traced from Calvin to Augustine to the Gnostic beliefs and writings. IMHO it is a tragedy that Augustine brought it into Christianity from his days of being a gnostic.

Gnostics also believed that mankind was wholly evil and some sects even renounced marriage and procreation. They also believed in two gods, one evil god and one good god. Their teachings are believed to have influenced Saint Augustine in the development of his theology of "total depravity" of mankind and concept of God. For nine years St. Augustine adhered to Manichaeism, a Persian philosophy proclaimed in southern Babylonia (Iraq) that taught a doctrine of "total depravity" and the claim that they were the "elect."
http://www.allaboutreligion.org/gnos...ianity-faq.htm

An example of such a flawed, Gnostic-tinged theology is Augustine's idea of predestination, that God had elected from eternity to save some while condemning the rest to damnation. Anyone familiar with Gnostic theology can see the influence of the Gnostic belief in the saved pneumatikoi versus the damned somatikoi. Adding to these Gnostic assumptions on Augustine's part was his flawed Latin translation of Scripture, which translated the Greek word "proorizein" to the Latin "praedestinare." The Latin verb is much stronger in its meaning than the Greek -- and Augustine naturally took this strong Latin word to its logical conclusion, a conclusion which none of the Fathers who worked with the original Greek text reached.

http://www.piousfabrications.com/2010/01/calvinism-is-gnostic-sect.html

 

[David Lamb]

The Bible teaches that the carnal mindset is at war with God and will not subject itself to God's Law - Rom. 8:7 "Neither indeed can be"

The Bible teaches that the carnal mind is incapable of understanding spiritual things - 1 Cor. 2:14 "Neither can he know them"

The Bible teaches that other than Jesus Christ there is "no flesh" not one human being that God regards as "good" or "righteous" in "all the world" - Rom. 3:10-11, 19-20.

The Bible teaches that no man has ability to come to Christ in faith except it is given unto him by the Father - John 6:64-65. "No man CAN come to me except..."

The Bible teaches that there is nothing "good" in the flesh (Rom. 7:18).

The Bible teaches that men come into the world condemned already because they love darkness and hate the light and will not come to the light (Jn. 3:18-20).

The Bible teaches that man is as incapable of changing his inclination to evil as the lepord is incapable of changing his spots and the Ethiopion is incapble of changing the color of his skin as all these things are characteristic of each from birth by nature - Jer. 13:23

The Bible teaches that all men are sinners by nature from the womb - Isa. 48:8; Psa. 51:3; Job 14:1-4; 15:14; 25:23; etc.

However, you are not interested in the scriptures at all. You are simply so full of venom against the truth and you simply want an opportunity to vent your venom regardless of what the Scriptures teach.

Me, not interested in the scriptures at all? Me, "simply so full of venom against the truth and I simply want an opportunity to vent my venom regardless of what the Scriptures teach"? I think this must be a case of mistaken identity. Apart from the comments about me, I fully agree with your post.

The purpose of my earlier post was no more than to ask the OP what he/she thought "total depravity" is.

 

[Moriah]

In order to answer your question, I would need to know (briefly) what you, Moriah, understand by the phrase "Total Depravity".

Total Depravity is the inability to come to God even after learning of Him.

For example, if you are using it to mean something like: "Every human being who has ever lived is as derpraved as he/she could possibly be," then I would say that such a notion isn't in the bible. Indeed, quite the opposite is true, for Jesus said in Matthew 7.9-11:

"9 Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!"
​

On the other hand, if you mean by it that every aspect of our lives is tainted by sin, that would be a different matter entirely.

Or, of course, you may mean neither of those things.

The Bible tells us that humans are evil, but this still does not say that humans cannot believe in God after learning of Him.
No one can give me a scripture that says all are totally depraved, because there is no such scripture.
Thank you for your reply.

 

[Moriah]

If you mean pre-faith regeneration, then no. Believing in the Son is necessary before anyone can be saved. IOW, you can't be saved until you believe.

I am so glad to hear you say this! You must not be a Calvinist or a Lutheran. Yes, we must believe before we are saved, and God does not make us believe.

 

[Moriah]

The Bible teaches that the carnal mindset is at war with God and will not subject itself to God's Law - Rom. 8:7 "Neither indeed can be"

Romans 8:7 does not say we cannot believe in God after learning of Him. Romans 8:7 is about how we need the indwelling of the Spirit to help us to stop sinning, and to help us understand God’s law.

The Bible teaches that the carnal mind is incapable of understanding spiritual things - 1 Cor. 2:14 "Neither can he know them"

1 Corinthians 2:14 does not say humans cannot believe in God after learning of Him.

The Bible teaches that other than Jesus Christ there is "no flesh" not one human being that God regards as "good" or "righteous" in "all the world" - Rom. 3:10-11, 19-20.

Romans 3:10-11, and 19-20 does not say we cannot believe in God after learning of Him.

The Bible teaches that no man has ability to come to Christ in faith except it is given unto him by the Father - John 6:64-65. "No man CAN come to me except..."

John 6:64-65 is about when Jesus was on earth, only those who already belonged to God could come to Jesus. However, after Jesus was lifted up, all men could come to him.

The Bible teaches that there is nothing "good" in the flesh (Rom. 7:18).

Romans 7:18 does not say we cannot believe in God after learning of Him.

The Bible teaches that men come into the world condemned already because they love darkness and hate the light and will not come to the light (Jn. 3:18-20).

The scripture does not say ALL men love darkness more than light, just the ones who do not come to the light love darkness more than light.

The Bible teaches that man is as incapable of changing his inclination to evil as the lepord is incapable of changing his spots and the Ethiopion is incapble of changing the color of his skin as all these things are characteristic of each from birth by nature - Jer. 13:23

This is not about everyone.

The Bible teaches that all men are sinners by nature from the womb - Isa. 48:8; Psa. 51:3; Job 14:1-4; 15:14; 25:23; etc.

These scriptures do not say we cannot believe in God after learning of Him.

However, you are not interested in the scriptures at all. You are simply so full of venom against the truth and you simply want an opportunity to vent your venom regardless of what the Scriptures teach.

You are falsely judging me. I love God’s Word. That means---I love God’s Word. I do not love John Calvin’s word. If it is not in the Bible, then it is not God’s Word. You cannot show me one scripture that says we cannot believe in God after learning of Him. That is a manufactured doctrine. You do not believe in God’s Word. You do not believe in scripture alone.

 

[Moriah]

Romans 3:23 tells us we all are sinners and come short of God's glory. As Brother David asked, it depends on what you mean by "Totally depraved". This doesn't mean you are as bad as you can be.

No matter how bad a person is, that does not mean that they cannot believe in God after learning of Him. The belief of man not being able to believe in God after learning of Him is nowhere in the Bible.

I'm assuming you don't believe we are born with original sin. I must ask then can a person be saved w/o Christ?

I do not use manufactured phrases from sinful man to explain God’s Word. Therefore, I do not say I believe in original sin. I believe we are human and are inclined to sin and negativity. We are born in a world with the devil as the god of this world. We must hear of God in order to believe in God. If a person has never heard of Jesus, I believe they will have the opportunity to learn the truth before being condemned for rejecting Jesus. I believe no one can be saved without Jesus.

 

[convicted1]

in order to be 'spirituall alive", one MUST have been born again/justified/reconciled back to God...

You hold to humans are born in that state, and than lose it when we sin, and get it back when born again again?

The prodical son's father said this was his son, who was alive again. He must have had life to begin with. Unless you advocate a fall from grace, this is showing a lost person returning home. BTW, how can he return home, if he was home to start with.? You believe whatever float your boats. It's your dime.