Where is it in the Bible

[Moriah]

Do you actually think merely asserting your position proves your position?????

I give you scripture. You still do not give not one scripture that says what you believe.

John 6:44,65 explicitly and clearly denies your position!

The Word of God proves you wrong.

Jesus does not say "SOME MEN" cannot come to him as your interpretation asserts but that "NO MAN" can come to him in faith except it is given unto him by the Father.

Where did I say “some men”? Stop making up things.

Romans 5:12 does not contradit John 6:44,64-65!!!! Romans 5:12 simply denies that access is any other way but through faith whereas John 6:64-65 asserts that NO MAN CAN come to Christ by faith except it is given him of the Father. Hence, clear and explicit scripture trumps your personal opinion!

God enables us by faith. We have access by faith. Do you deny this? When Jesus had his ministry on earth, he came first for the lost sheep of Israel. Do you deny this? God hardened the Jews who did not believe in Jesus. Do you believe this?
Answer simply if you believe or not.

 

[Moriah]

... the Son died to secure our salvation, ...

You say to secure our salvation. Where do you get that false idea?

 

[mandym]

You say too secure our salvation. Where do you get that [rudeness snipped]idea?

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[Moriah]

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Mandym,

You did not explain how he got that false idea.
Those scriptures you gave do not say Jesus dying for us merely secures our salvation!

 

[mandym]

Mandym,

You did not explain how he got that [rude word snipped] idea.
Those scriptures you gave do not say Jesus dying for us merely secures our salvation!

Merely is your word no one else has used it.

 

[The Biblicist]

I give you scripture.

Is Moriah telling the truth? Did he give me scripture when I gave him John 6:64-65 the first time? Did he give me scripture when he responded to my second post? Below are his responses, you be the judge if he is lying or not!

A. Moriah's first response to my John 6:64-65 statement:

We can only come to Jesus by faith. No one can come to Jesus unless they have faith. How do you think this scripture says no one can believe in God after learning of Him? How do you think this scripture says God saves someone before they believe and make them believe? It does not.

Do you see one scripture in this response?


B. Moriah's Second response when asked in Post #33 to provide any contextual scripture from John 6 to support his above assertion:

We cannot come to Jesus unless we have faith. That is how we have access. THAT IS THE WORD OF GOD. YOU GO AGAINST THE WORD OF GOD. You are not going against me, you are going against Jesus. Nowhere does the Bible say what you believe. God enables us by faith, it is HOW WE HAVE ACCESS.

Romans 5:12 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.

His interpetation of John 6:64-65 was challenged. I challenged him to support his outlandish interpretation by sustaining that interpretation from the context of John 6! Do you find any contextual basis provided from John 6 in the above response? NOTHING!

Instead he jumps out of the context and into another book of the Bible and quotes Romans 5:12. No one denies that faith gives access into the grace of justification because we are justified by Faith (Rom. 5:1-2). However, Romans 5:5:12 DOES NOT TELL US HOW WE OBTAIN FAITH, IT ONLY TELLS US WHY WE NEED FAITH BUT JOHN 6:44-45; 64-65 TELLS US HOW MAN RECEIVES FAITH, FROM WHENCE IT COMES - "GIVEN OF THE FATHER".

 

[convicted1]

Just to be clear, do you believe total depravity is false?

The way the reformed Brethern believe it, I disagree with. I do think we become T.D. after God accounts/imputes sin unto us, and then we become T.D. They(reformed Brethern) believe we are born in an already T.D. state, which I do not.

For clarification: What I mean by T.D. is that as sinners, we have no desire to serve God until He first calls. Even with Him calling us, some/most will reject this call. IOW, we are unable/unwilling to even want to serve Him until He first calls.

My personal experience: When I was a sinner, God drawed me for years. I'd go to church for a while, and then stop. I enjoyed talking to people about the bible, but when someone tried to force salvation upon me, I'd back away. I didn't want to die and go to hell, but I didn't want to serve God, either. It was when God sent a radio preacher my way one morning on the way home from work, that it really shook me. This preacher was preaching from Daniel 3, and the fiery furnace. It was then that I realized if He didn't save me, I'd be in a fiery furnace for eternity. God had finally gotten my complete attention. I then began seeking after Him, and His mercy, grace, forgiveness, love etc. On thursady May 24th, 20007, at approx 1:30 am, He saved a sinner from his sins. I had no desire to serve Him whatsoever until He was drawing me. I was T.D., with no desire of serving God. Now, I do my very best to please Him every second of every day....though I fall woefully short many times :tear:.

I hope this clears things up.


I do think a sinner(spiritually dead that is) can, and does, hear God. So, maybe that's not T.D. that I called it. But I do think none of us as sinners were willing to come before He first called us.

 

[Moriah]

Merely is your word no one else has used it.

This is what the poster said:

"... the Son died to secure our salvation, ..."

The word merely fits in there just fine. Jesus did not die to secure our salvation, for we would not have salvation if Jesus did not die for us.

 

[Moriah]

Biblicist,

I just want to let you know that I have not read your latest post to me. It is just too

difficult to wade through the…stuff…you said. Maybe I can get through it at another time.

 

[Moriah]

The way the reformed Brethern believe it, I disagree with. I do think we become T.D. after God accounts/imputes sin unto us, and then we become T.D. They(reformed Brethern) believe we are born in an already T.D. state, which I do not.

I am not sure what you mean by saying we become totally depraved after God accounts sin to us.

For clarification: What I mean by T.D. is that as sinners, we have no desire to serve God until He first calls. Even with Him calling us, some/most will reject this call. IOW, we are unable/unwilling to even want to serve Him until He first calls.

I do not believe in Total Depravity in any way the reformed believe. I do believe that someone can be called totally depraved when someone comes to Jesus, and then later rejects Jesus.

My personal experience: When I was a sinner, God drawed me for years. I'd go to church for a while, and then stop. I enjoyed talking to people about the bible, but when someone tried to force salvation upon me, I'd back away. I didn't want to die and go to hell, but I didn't want to serve God, either. It was when God sent a radio preacher my way one morning on the way home from work, that it really shook me. This preacher was preaching from Daniel 3, and the fiery furnace. It was then that I realized if He didn't save me, I'd be in a fiery furnace for eternity. God had finally gotten my complete attention. I then began seeking after Him, and His mercy, grace, forgiveness, love etc. On thursady May 24th, 20007, at approx 1:30 am, He saved a sinner from his sins. I had no desire to serve Him whatsoever until He was drawing me. I was T.D., with no desire of serving God. Now, I do my very best to please Him every second of every day....though I fall woefully short many times :tear:. I hope this clears things up.

Thank you for telling your testimony. You really cleared it up. It really is good to hear it when someone does not believe in total depravity, so many do.

I do think a sinner(spiritually dead that is) can, and does, hear God. So, maybe that's not T.D. that I called it. But I do think none of us as sinners were willing to come before He first called us.

No, that is not called total depravity the way you believe. I am not very sure I know what you mean by saying we were unwilling to come before God called us. Do you mean the first time we hear about God is a calling from God?
Thanks again, Convicted1.

 

[convicted1]

I am not sure what you mean by saying we become totally depraved after God accounts sin to us.

When we are born, I believe we are born spiritually alive. In this state, even infants sin, but do so not knowing that is wrong in the sight of God. Take for instance, you tell a child to not get into the cookies. While you're out of the room, they go and get into them. You walk in and catch them redhanded, and you then tell them, "I thought I told you to not get into those cookies". To which they would probably reply, "I was getting the cookies for you". Did they lie? Yessirree. But did they know that is was a sin unto God. No. It's when someone knows to do good, and does it not, it is then sin unto them. At this time, God imputes/accounts their sins unto them, and are no longer under His Grace, and needs to be saved. From this point forth, they can not get back to God w/o Him first calling them. This call will go to all, but only those who believe will be added to the Fold.

I do not believe in Total Depravity in any way the reformed believe. I do believe that someone can be called totally depraved when someone comes to Jesus, and then later rejects Jesus.

I do not believe we are born in a totally depraved state, either.

Thank you for telling your testimony. You really cleared it up. It really is good to hear it when someone does not believe in total depravity, so many do.

You're welcome. I am glad I have cleared things up.

No, that is not called total depravity the way you believe. I am not very sure I know what you mean by saying we were unwilling to come before God called us. Do you mean the first time we hear about God is a calling from God?
Thanks again, Convicted1.

When I was a sinner, I was a SINNER!! Not bragging about this, but it was true. I had no desire to serve God whatsoever. It was when He drew me, I'd go to church for a while, and then stop, and back to my sinful life I went. Over time, when I heard that message, He got my full attention. I had no desire to serve Him until then. Other times, when He drew me, I would have a desire to serve Him, but over time, I went my own way. I was never saved at those other times He drew me. I would go to church, and ask Him to save me, and even read my bible. But I wasn't saved. However, on May 24th, 2007, He saved my dead soul. Praise be to Him!!

 

[David Lamb]

Sorry about that! I was incorporating your response in direct aim at Moriah, not you!

Thanks for explaining, Biblicist!

 

[The Biblicist]

Biblicist,

I just want to let you know that I have not read your latest post to me. It is just too

difficult to wade through the…stuff…you said. Maybe I can get through it at another time.

yeah, when you stick you foot so deeply into your own mouth as you have done and it is pointed out, it is hard to confront the truth isn't it?

 

[billwald]

"Total depravity," like the Trinity, is a legal construct not explicitly taught in the Bible.

By the way, it means that sin contaminates all human activity, NOT that all human activity is evil.

 

[The Biblicist]

"Total depravity," like the Trinity, is a legal construct not explicitly taught in the Bible.

By the way, it means that sin contaminates all human activity, NOT that all human activity is evil.

Everything you do is done either from a right or wrong motive. Since we are commanded no matter what we do, to do all for the glory of God (1 Cor. 10:31) then it is sin when we fail to do whatever we do for any other motive. Hence, all have "come short of the glory of God." Hence, sin characterizes all that we do from the wrong motive.

 

[Moriah]

Everything you do is done either from a right or wrong motive. Since we are commanded no matter what we do, to do all for the glory of God (1 Cor. 10:31) then it is sin when we fail to do whatever we do for any other motive. Hence, all have "come short of the glory of God." Hence, sin characterizes all that we do from the wrong motive.

You are such an empathizer of sin. How can you feel right about how you speak? You make sin a normal part of Christian living…Jesus says we are more than just conquerors; however, with you, we are only wretched and disgusting. I could not stand myself to see myself in any way except the way God sees me, and that is through His Son. God sees me as holy and perfect. You are an accuser, always throwing up sin to believers, and making sin the conqueror. Apostle Paul says he presses on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of him. Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead. Pressing and straining toward what is ahead, pressing on toward the goal to win the prize. Apostle Paul says do you not know that in a race, all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.

God has saved me and called me to a holy life--not because of anything I have done but because of his own purpose and grace. For you to keep harping on what sinners Christians are, is like having Satan as a messenger. Paul says therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess. You constantly remind us of sin, but Paul says fix your thoughts on Jesus. Paul calls us “holy brothers.” Do you think you sound anything like Paul? I say no way do you sound like Paul.

You still need to hear the elementary teachings about Christ, you are not ready to go on to maturity, and you need the laying of the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death. Do you not understand that you speak of acts that lead to death as normal acts of everyday life as a Christian?

 

[saturneptune]

There is no one who is righteous, not even one is about Paul explaining how Jews are no different from Gentiles, even though the Jews were God's people. Paul is explaining how Gentiles are offered salvation too. There is no one who is righteous and NEVER SINS.
It does NOT mean that we CANNOT believe in God after learning of Him. That is a manufactured doctrine that is NOWHERE in the Bible. Believe only on the word of God.

If you read the post again, no where will you find where I said man cannot believe in God. In fact, Romans 1:20-21 says we can look around us, the night sky in particular, and know there is a God. When one goes beyond that to the Gospel, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. How you got that I believe that God is up in heaven zapping people with His magic wand into salvation daily, I do not know.

I do not carry around a chip on my shoulder in trying to explain the sovereignty of God compared to the responsibility of man. It does have an element of mystery. The best answer is to let God be God and let Him handle it. All that is required of us is to put our faith in Jesus Christ. Some come to the Lord and some do not. I am not going to micromanage what rests in the realm of the eternal. If we spent as much time telling others about Jesus as we do arguing between Calvinism and Arminianism, then possibly more people would be in God's family.

 

[The Biblicist]

You are such an empathizer of sin. How can you feel right about how you speak? You make sin a normal part of Christian living…Jesus says we are more than just conquerors; however, with you, we are only wretched and disgusting.

You are simply ignorant of the Scriptures and at minimum greatly immature in the Christian walk. We are more than conquerors "IN HIM" not IN US! There is no victory OUTSIDE of Christ. We have already conquered sin judicially/position through justification by faith "in him." As we are walking "in him" we experience victory over the manifestation of sin in our lives. Our MATURITY is determined by the characterization of our walk "in him." All Christians are not EQUAL in their walk, that is why the Bible speaks of spiritual "children" and "young men" and "fathers."

I could not stand myself to see myself in any way except the way God sees me, and that is through His Son. God sees me as holy and perfect.

This is how you are "IN HIM" judicially by justification but this is not how you are personally and practically simply becuase you are not yet glorified like Christ in your own person.

Apostle Paul says he presses on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of him. Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead. Pressing and straining toward what is ahead, pressing on toward the goal to win the prize.

Read the text again! You are misreading it! He plainly tells you that he has not yet attained, he has not yet attained being perfect:

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after,

You simply reject what Paul says and rewrite it to suite your heresy! He clearly and expressly denies he has already attained perfection!

Of course, we should never be satisfied with our imperfection, but that does not mean we deny it either and that is exactly what you are doing. Paul did not deny his imperfection but just would not allow it to keep him from pressing toward the only real worthy goal to strive for - perfection.

Notice he admits that he needed to forget the past which is history of failures to attain perfection. He simply confessed his sins and got back up and pressed forward and that is what every healthy child of God should do.

However, Paul did not deny his imperfect condition, he simply refused to allow it to stop him from pressing toward the mark of perfection and thus maturing as that is exactly how we mature in our walk.

But you are denying your imperfect condition. You won't admit you are a sinful person but you are trying to make everyone believe you are a sinless person. There is no middle ground between sinless and sinful. You are one or the other and Paul denied he was sinless and admitted he needed to forget his past failures.

You still need to hear the elementary teachings about Christ, you are not ready to go on to maturity, and you need the laying of the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death. Do you not understand that you speak of acts that lead to death as normal acts of everyday life as a Christian?

Your own words here condemn your very doctrine of sinless perfection. The sinless or perfect man needs no maturing as he is already sinless or perfect or living above sin. No one can go on to maturity believing your doctrine as they are already as mature as they can possibly attain - perfection, sinlessness!

Just because a person does not willfully/intentionally sin does not me they do not sin, as willful sin is but ONE way to violate God's law but not the only way to violate God's law. Everything you do is sin if it is not done with the intent to glorify God (1 Cor. 10:31). Coming short of the glory of God is sin (Rom. 3:23). Acting contrary to your own convictions regardless if your convictions are right or wrong in God's eyes is sin (Rom. 14 "whatsoever is not of faith is sin"). Sin is not merely an external act ommitted or committed but it is any state of mind that is contrary to the spirit of God's Word. Sin is not merely attitude and actions ommitted or committed but it is a CONDITION of being where indwelling sin resides evidenced by its fruits.

Only a sincerely ignorant man would claim to be living above sin or an arrogant self-righteous hypocrit.

Here is the bottom line in so far as real spirituality! The true spiritual man grows more conscious of his own sinfulness the closer he walks with God. The immature Christian or lost professor is the only man who perceives himself as living above sin.

 

[Moriah]

We are more than conquerors "IN HIM" not IN US!

Show me where I said, “IN US.” Show me where in the scriptures it says, “not IN US.” You have manufactured beliefs, so no doubt you have debates with straw men.

This is how you are "IN HIM" judicially by justification but this is not how you are personally and practically simply becuase you are not yet glorified like Christ in your own person.

Show me these exact words in the Bible. You cannot. You speak gobbledygook (to put it too kindly).

Read the text again! You are misreading it! He plainly tells you that he has not yet attained, he has not yet attained being perfect:

Paul says he has not obtained it yet, but he does NOT go on and on ANYWHERE as you DO how you go on and on to me about what a sinner I am, and what a sinner all Christians are. Show me where in the Bible where Paul speaks as you do. You do not speak as a Christian.

You simply reject what Paul says and rewrite it to suite your heresy! He clearly and expressly denies he has already attained perfection!

Again, show me where Paul speaks to Christians and tells them what you tell me. Show me where Paul tells Christians that they will give into their flesh daily and all day. Show me, or repent. Show me where Paul says exactly what you say. For I only speak of the word of God.

Of course, we should never be satisfied with our imperfection, but that does not mean we deny it either and that is exactly what you are doing.

You accuse, that is your work. You also teach false doctrine, that is also your work.

Notice he admits that he needed to forget the past which is history of failures to attain perfection. He simply confessed his sins and got back up and pressed forward and that is what every healthy child of God should do.

Now you are trying to act as if you have been this way all along! What a farce.

But you are denying your imperfect condition. You won't admit you are a sinful person but you are trying to make everyone believe you are a sinless person. There is no middle ground between sinless and sinful. You are one or the other and Paul denied he was sinless and admitted he needed to forget his past failures.

More of your straw man debates. Show me one place where I said any of this. You are an accuser. You have been exposed.

Just because a person does not willfully/intentionally sin does not me they do not sin, as willful sin is but ONE way to violate God's law but not the only way to violate God's law. Everything you do is sin if it is not done with the intent to glorify God (1 Cor. 10:31). Coming short of the glory of God is sin (Rom. 3:23). Acting contrary to your own convictions regardless if your convictions are right or wrong in God's eyes is sin (Rom. 14 "whatsoever is not of faith is sin"). Sin is not merely an external act ommitted or committed but it is any state of mind that is contrary to the spirit of God's Word. Sin is not merely attitude and actions ommitted or committed but it is a CONDITION of being where indwelling sin resides evidenced by its fruits. Only a sincerely ignorant man would claim to be living above sin or an arrogant self-righteous hypocrit.

You have no control of the way you speak do you.

We are more than conquerors "IN HIM" not IN US!

Show me where I said, “IN US.” Show me where in the scriptures it says, “not IN US.” You have manufactured beliefs, so no doubt you have debates with straw men.

This is how you are "IN HIM" judicially by justification but this is not how you are personally and practically simply becuase you are not yet glorified like Christ in your own person.

Show me these exact words in the Bible. You cannot. You speak gobbledygook (to put it too kindly).

Read the text again! You are misreading it! He plainly tells you that he has not yet attained, he has not yet attained being perfect:

Paul says he has not obtained it yet, but he does NOT go on and on ANYWHERE as you DO how you go on and on to me about what a sinner I am, and what a sinner all Christians are. Show me where in the Bible where Paul speaks as you do. You do not speak as a Christian.

You simply reject what Paul says and rewrite it to suite your heresy! He clearly and expressly denies he has already attained perfection!

Again, show me where Paul speaks to Christians and tells them what you tell me. Show me where Paul tells Christians that they will give into their flesh daily and all day. Show me, or repent. Show me where Paul says exactly what you say. For I only speak of the word of God.

Of course, we should never be satisfied with our imperfection, but that does not mean we deny it either and that is exactly what you are doing.

You accuse, that is your work. You also teach false doctrine, that is also your work.

Notice he admits that he needed to forget the past which is history of failures to attain perfection. He simply confessed his sins and got back up and pressed forward and that is what every healthy child of God should do.

Now you are trying to act as if you have been this way all a long! What a farce.

But you are denying your imperfect condition. You won't admit you are a sinful person but you are trying to make everyone believe you are a sinless person. There is no middle ground between sinless and sinful. You are one or the other and Paul denied he was sinless and admitted he needed to forget his past failures.

More of your straw man debates. Show me one place where I said any of this. You are an accuser. You have been exposed.

Just because a person does not willfully/intentionally sin does not me they do not sin, as willful sin is but ONE way to violate God's law but not the only way to violate God's law. Everything you do is sin if it is not done with the intent to glorify God (1 Cor. 10:31). Coming short of the glory of God is sin (Rom. 3:23). Acting contrary to your own convictions regardless if your convictions are right or wrong in God's eyes is sin (Rom. 14 "whatsoever is not of faith is sin"). Sin is not merely an external act ommitted or committed but it is any state of mind that is contrary to the spirit of God's Word. Sin is not merely attitude and actions ommitted or committed but it is a CONDITION of being where indwelling sin resides evidenced by its fruits. Only a sincerely ignorant man would claim to be living above sin or an arrogant self-righteous hypocrit.

You have no control of the way you speak do you.

Here is the bottom line in so far as real spirituality! The true spiritual man grows more conscious of his own sinfulness the closer he walks with God. The immature Christian or lost professor is the only man who perceives himself as living above sin.

Show me those exact words from the Bible. You cannot, you cannot because you speak for someone that accuses the brethren.

 

[DHK]

First Accusation:

You have manufactured beliefs, so no doubt you have debates with straw men.

Second Accusation:

You cannot. You speak gobbledygook (to put it too kindly)

Third Accusation:

he does NOT go on and on ANYWHERE as you DO how you go on and on to me about what a sinner I am, and what a sinner all Christians are.

Fourth Accusation:

Show me where in the Bible where Paul speaks as you do. You do not speak as a Christian.

Fifth Accusation:

You accuse, that is your work.

Sixth Accusation:

You also teach false doctrine, that is also your work.

Seventh Accusation:

Now you are trying to act as if you have been this way all along! What a farce.

Eighth Accusation:

You are an accuser.

Ninth Accusation:

You have been exposed.

Tenth Accusation:

You have no control of the way you speak do you.

Eleventh Accusation:

You cannot, you cannot because you speak for someone that accuses the brethren.

Moriah, for someone who accuses someone else of accusing the brethren, you sure do accuse the brethren a lot. Do you think you ought to give it a break??