convicted1
Guest
No I am not either of those. I am like Apostle Paul; "By the grace of God, I am what I am." That's good enough for me, just to be called His.
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Where is it in the Bible
- Thread starter Moriah
- Start date
No I am not either of those. I am like Apostle Paul; "By the grace of God, I am what I am." That's good enough for me, just to be called His.
Me, not interested in the scriptures at all? Me, "simply so full of venom against the truth and I simply want an opportunity to vent my venom regardless of what the Scriptures teach"?I think this must be a case of mistaken identity. Apart from the comments about me, I fully agree with your post.
The purpose of my earlier post was no more than to ask the OP what he/she thought "total depravity" is.
Why would you say you believe what Biblicist says? Biblicist believes God saves people and makes them born again before they believe in Him. Please do not let Biblicist confuse you.
Just to be clear, do you believe total depravity is false?
God does not give us His Holy Spirit when we hate Him. God does not make us believe in Him. We receive the Holy Spirit after we obey God. Those who love God are the ones who obey God. See John 14.
What is King David saying where Paul quotes about no one searches for God? At that time, it is a sad state of affairs inside Israel. When the day arrived, no one searched for God. Later, they repented, and searched for God. During slavery in Egypt, the Jewish people asked God, if he had forgotten them. How could they do so, if THEY were not wondering where He had disappeared? In the New Testament, when Jesus arrived, people shouted: “Son of David, have mercy on me”. They were looking for the Messiah. In the New Testament a blind man was searching for the Son of God, the prophet’s had said would come. Paul is explaining how even God’s chosen people, even them; they are no different from the rest of man kind.
It is so good to hear the truth spoken. Thanks for this reply.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
Thank you Moriah, but let me assure you that Biblicist only "confused me" by suggesting that I didn't believe what he believes, even saying that I am "simply so full of venom against the truth and I simply want an opportunity to vent my venom regardless of what the Scriptures teach" (I hope that none of my posts has venom in it - it's certainly unintentional!
). My post was to clear up that misunderstanding, not in this instance to get into a debate.
Me, not interested in the scriptures at all? Me, "simply so full of venom against the truth and I simply want an opportunity to vent my venom regardless of what the Scriptures teach"?
The purpose of my earlier post was no more than to ask the OP what he/she thought "total depravity" is.
Sorry about that! I was incorporating your response in direct aim at Moriah, not you!
First look at the question in the OP! You are asking one verse to show total depravity when man is "BORN"! You are not asking about what man can do AFTER the Holy Spirit deals with them.
Second, you can't just make some wild interpretation about John 6:64-65 without substantiating it by immediate contextual evidence from WITHIN the context of John 6! Why? Because Jesus says "NO MAN" rather than "NO JEW" or "NO MAN WHILE I AM ON EARTH" ect.! You can't simply make a wild unsubstantiated claim!
saturneptune
New Member
I am not going to enter a Calvin-free will debate, but don't you think Romans 3:10 defines our state?
I know what man can do after the Holy Spirit deals with him.
I made this thread, so do not try to tell me what I really meant. Calvinists and Lutherans have false doctrines about God saving people before they believe, and that God saves people first to make them believe. Now, give one scripture that says humans are born totally depraved. Give one scripture that says no human can believe in God after learning of Him.
We can only come to Jesus by faith. No one can come to Jesus unless they have faith. How do you think this scripture says no one can believe in God after learning of Him? How do you think this scripture says God saves someone before they believe and make them believe? It does not.
There is no one who is righteous, not even one is about Paul explaining how Jews are no different from Gentiles, even though the Jews were God's people. Paul is explaining how Gentiles are offered salvation too. There is no one who is righteous and NEVER SINS.
It does NOT mean that we CANNOT believe in God after learning of Him. That is a manufactured doctrine that is NOWHERE in the Bible. Believe only on the word of God.
What you "meant" has nothing to do with this at all! IT IS WHAT YOU ACTUALLLY SAID!
You can't provide any contextual substance to back up your irrational and rediculous interpretation of John 6:44-45; 64-65 and so you get personal and ignore it.
We cannot come to Jesus unless we have faith. That is how we have access. THAT IS THE WORD OF GOD. YOU GO AGAINST THE WORD OF GOD. You are not going against me, you are going against Jesus. Nowhere does the Bible say what you believe. God enables us by faith, it is HOW WE HAVE ACCESS.
Romans 5:12 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.
This is HOW WE GAIN ACCESS.
Romans 5:12 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.
The scriptures DO NOT say what Calvinists and Lutherans say. We do not have access by God saving us first and causing us to believe! That is NOWHERE in the scriptures. ONLY BELIEVE ON THE WORD OF GOD.
Romans 5:12 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.
The scriptures DO NOT say what Calvinists and Lutherans say. We do not have access by God saving us first and causing us to believe! That is NOWHERE in the scriptures. ONLY BELIEVE ON THE WORD OF GOD.
Take billy graham in his youth/prime, place him in a cementary and ahve him preach gospel..
How many hear and believe?
NONE
same fashion, we are spiritually dead in our sins, and cannot respond to the Lord directly!
That is NOWHERE in the scriptures, NOWHERE. That is a manufactured belief.
Do you actually think merely asserting your position proves your position?????
John 6:44,65 explicitly and clearly denies your position! Jesus does not say "SOME MEN" cannot come to him as your interpretation asserts but that "NO MAN" can come to him in faith except it is given unto him by the Father. Romans 5:12 does not contradit John 6:44,64-65!!!! Romans 5:12 simply denies that access is any other way but through faith whereas John 6:64-65 asserts that NO MAN CAN come to Christ by faith except it is given him of the Father.
Hence, clear and explicit scripture trumps your personal opinion!
I believe it was in Surprised By Joy by C.S. Lewis that he wrote about his conversion. It negates your belief as stated above.
the Father choses whom He wills to be saved by Grace of the Atonemnt, the Son died to secure our salvation, the Holy spirit does His work to bring us to jesus and to seal us in our salvation!