And Tom Butler and others have clearly proven you wrong on this.
It is time to just admit it and stop being obstinate.
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Who are the Arminians?
- Thread starter mandym
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And Tom Butler and others have clearly proven you wrong on this.
It is time to just admit it and stop being obstinate.
Originally Posted by Amy.G
The question is what or who causes spiritual growth. Only God can grow my spirit. I never said teachers aren't beneficial to the body of Christ. My disagreement is with saying that creeds cause spiritual growth.
I hear you Amy; if it looks like a Calvinist, and walks like a Calvinist, and quacks like a Calvinist…it’s growth is probably caused by eating as a …
Really? Where was the scripture proving that anything other than the Holy Spirit makes us grow spiritually?
It's time for you to just admit you are rude and un-Christlike towards your brethren and repent of it.
Please answer just this...
What can they add to the Bible, where/why is it deficit to enable Christians to grow and mature?
quantumfaith
Active Member
That is a Big AMEN.
Back to the OP - Drfruss is the only one I know of on BB that openly proclaims himself to be Arminian. I think he must be Free Will Baptist.
I actually have more respect for his theology than I do the "don't label me" crowd, because at least Drfruss is faithfully consistent to his system, and the "don't label me crowd" tends to be Pelagian, not Arminian. Anyone that believes that saving faith is a natural posession and can be exercised in human power and will is Pelagian, not Arminian.
I actually have more respect for his theology than I do the "don't label me" crowd, because at least Drfruss is faithfully consistent to his system, and the "don't label me crowd" tends to be Pelagian, not Arminian. Anyone that believes that saving faith is a natural posession and can be exercised in human power and will is Pelagian, not Arminian.
It is my understanding that the Remonstrants did not wish to have their expounding on Biblical doctrine and refuting the doctrines of Calvin to be named after a man from the beginning of the formation. The determinist followers of Calvin OTOH then came up with the TULIP and began calling themselves “Calvinist”. Read the last sentence after the articles, they do not claim to be agreeable to a man’s doctrine, but to the Word of God:
Remonstrants,
Article 1. [Conditional Election - corresponds to the second of TULIP’s five points, Unconditional Election]
That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son before the foundation of the world, has determined that out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who through the grace of the Holy Spirit shall believe on this his son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath and to condemn them as alienated from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36: “He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that does not believe the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him,” and according to other passages of Scripture also.
Article 2.
[Unlimited Atonement - corresponds to the third of TULIP’s five points, Limited Atonement]
That, accordingly, Jesus Christ the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins except the believer, according to the word of the Gospel of John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” And in the First Epistle of John 2:2: “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
Article 3.
[Deprivation - corresponds to the first of TULIP’s five points, Total Depravity]
That man does not posses saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as in his state of apostasy and sin he can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving Faith eminently is); but that it is necessary that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, and will, and all his faculties, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me you can do nothing.”
Article 4.
[Resistible Grace - corresponds to the fourth of TULIP’s five points, IrresistibleGrace]
That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good, even to the extent that the regenerate man himself, without prevenient or assisting, awakening, following and cooperative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements that can be conceived must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But with respect to the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible, since it is written concerning many, that they have resisted the Holy Spirit (Acts 7, and elsewhere in many places).
Article 5.
[Assurance and Security - corresponds to the fifth of TULIP’s five points, Perseverance of the Saints]
That those who are incorporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, as a result have full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Spirit; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no deceit or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of neglecting grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with the full confidence of our mind.
These Articles, thus set forth and taught, the Remonstrants deem agreeable to the Word of God, tending to edification, and, as regards this argument, sufficient for salvation, so that it is not necessary or edifying to rise higher or to descend deeper.
Remonstrants,
Article 1. [Conditional Election - corresponds to the second of TULIP’s five points, Unconditional Election]
That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son before the foundation of the world, has determined that out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who through the grace of the Holy Spirit shall believe on this his son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath and to condemn them as alienated from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36: “He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that does not believe the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him,” and according to other passages of Scripture also.
Article 2.
[Unlimited Atonement - corresponds to the third of TULIP’s five points, Limited Atonement]
That, accordingly, Jesus Christ the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins except the believer, according to the word of the Gospel of John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” And in the First Epistle of John 2:2: “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
Article 3.
[Deprivation - corresponds to the first of TULIP’s five points, Total Depravity]
That man does not posses saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as in his state of apostasy and sin he can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving Faith eminently is); but that it is necessary that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, and will, and all his faculties, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me you can do nothing.”
Article 4.
[Resistible Grace - corresponds to the fourth of TULIP’s five points, IrresistibleGrace]
That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good, even to the extent that the regenerate man himself, without prevenient or assisting, awakening, following and cooperative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements that can be conceived must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But with respect to the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible, since it is written concerning many, that they have resisted the Holy Spirit (Acts 7, and elsewhere in many places).
Article 5.
[Assurance and Security - corresponds to the fifth of TULIP’s five points, Perseverance of the Saints]
That those who are incorporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, as a result have full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Spirit; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no deceit or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of neglecting grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with the full confidence of our mind.
These Articles, thus set forth and taught, the Remonstrants deem agreeable to the Word of God, tending to edification, and, as regards this argument, sufficient for salvation, so that it is not necessary or edifying to rise higher or to descend deeper.
Only God gives growth. In that she is correct, but she is discounting the instruments through which He plants and waters.
We've all alluded to the Scriptures. If you need the citations to these very basic, elementary principles, you are probably engaging the wrong topic.
Does anybody have a list of the men who wrote the 1689.....I couldnt find it on line. Some had very impressive Credentials. And wasnt John Owen involved?
I am neither Pelagian nor Arminian. My doctrine is after no man. There is just no good that comes out of labeling anyone. It creates division and offends. In the end it is just childish.
:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
And where are we taught in scripture that we must have a "system of theology"????
The closest thing I can find is Paul rebuking the church for following men and causing division.
1 Corinthians 1:12-13 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
All these labelers are disobeying scripture and provoking those they label. If someone wants to know my doctrine I will tell them. But I do not need to be tied to systems named after men which do not represent me or my understanding of scripture correctly or fully. It is time for them to grow up.
I most certainly did not and do not "discount" God's instruments. I said (for the 3rd or 4th time) that it is the Holy Spirit that grows our spirits. Men cannot do that no matter how talented and knowledgeable they are. Men can edify but not cause spiritual growth.
I like to garden, but no matter how much I fertilize and water and give my plants tender loving care, it is God that makes them live and grow.
1 Corinthians 1:12-13 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Calvin; and I of Arminius; and I of the Pope; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Calvin crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Arminius?
I don't see any difference when I substitute the names. Paul was right and labelers are wrong.
I don't see any difference when I substitute the names. Paul was right and labelers are wrong.
Robert Snow
New Member
Not if Luke is an example of one. A Christian who constantly lifts up their education and qualifications and then tells others exactly how far short they fall if they don't have an identifiable theology like he does.
My bible tells me we are identified by our love toward the brethren, not by our conformance to any man-made theology.
I do appreciate your zeal for the Lord, I just wish you didn't have such a know-it-all attitude and weren't quite so self-absorbed.
Robert Snow
New Member
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This is the false and myopic view I speak of.
You apparently find what you want in order to belittle those with whom you disagree with. If you want a label that is your business. But do not tie me to someone I reject. I accept some of the same doctrines those who call themselves Calvinist. But that does not make me one any more than it make me an Arminian that I agree with him on some issues. Truth is folks like yourselves use "Arminian" as a pejorative not a doctrinal label. It is a personal attack and a swipe made in disagreement and for the purpose of belittling others. It is not meant to be uplifting or encouraging.
Do not tie me to someone I do not want to be tied to. Doing that is a personal attack. You guys just want to hold on to your pejoratives. It has become an acceptable means for attacking those who you disagree with.
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Surely these guys don't treat their church members like they treat others here who don't agree? If they do, then I certainly feel sorry for anyone who falls under such arrogance and dislike for anyone who doesn't fully agree with them. What a horrible church atmosphere where you must toe the theological line or be cut down as being an uneducated and heretical pagan.
preacher4truth
Active Member
First of all, agreeing to ones theological system in that it matches ones personal beliefs doesn't mean they are "following a man."
Some come across sounding as if they are following a man. Those on the other end of the spectrum ("I'm of Jesus!") there is Biblical evidence they are also wrong.
When others claim that they are of Christ (1 Cor. as opposed to others that they are laying the charge to "following man") they also were wrong. Why? They also stood divided. The body of Christ is not to be in division. It also sounds Pharisaical as if the one is a "super-spiritual being" compared to the other. Comparing is also condemned in Scriptures.
"'Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ." Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?'" 1 Corinthians 1:12-13
There are enough theological disciplines that most everyone will fit into one or the other somehow. Most can be "labelled." I prefer DoG and Calvinist teachings, but reject the label "Calvinist."
No one wins this battle until there is no division in all the body whatsoever. Everything else is just posturing and pride.
- Peace
Some come across sounding as if they are following a man. Those on the other end of the spectrum ("I'm of Jesus!") there is Biblical evidence they are also wrong.
When others claim that they are of Christ (1 Cor. as opposed to others that they are laying the charge to "following man") they also were wrong. Why? They also stood divided. The body of Christ is not to be in division. It also sounds Pharisaical as if the one is a "super-spiritual being" compared to the other. Comparing is also condemned in Scriptures.
"'Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ." Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?'" 1 Corinthians 1:12-13
There are enough theological disciplines that most everyone will fit into one or the other somehow. Most can be "labelled." I prefer DoG and Calvinist teachings, but reject the label "Calvinist."
No one wins this battle until there is no division in all the body whatsoever. Everything else is just posturing and pride.
- Peace
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