Who are the Arminians?

[webdog]

Surely these guys don't treat their church members like they treat others here who don't agree? If they do, then I certainly feel sorry for anyone who falls under such arrogance and dislike for anyone who doesn't fully agree with them. What a horrible church atmosphere where you must toe the theological line or be cut down as being an uneducated and heretical pagan.

Amen. No idea why the bb allows this to take place. Certainly this is "not showing grace to other members"...a violation.

 

[Iconoclast]

:thumbs:

Let's be careful here. It sounds really spiritual to say that all we need are the scriptures and Holy Spirit illumination for spiritual growth.

If one carries that argument to its logical extension, then you must advocate that we close down this board, because everything we write involves expressing our opinions.

Then we shutdown all the publishing houses, including those which supply material to Sunday School teachers, because we don't need their stuff any more. It's just opinion. Of course, we won't need teachers, because anybody can stand there and read scripture. But spiritually-gifted teachers are specifically called for in the scriptures.

Next, we can do away with our preachers, since anybody can stand in the pulpit and read the scriptures. We can do that, sing a hymn or two, pray some, take up the offering and go home. Don't need preaching. But wait a minute. The scriptures specifically say we need pastors and teachers for the edifying of the church.

Wait a minute. We won't need hymns and gospel songs either, because those are just somebody's opinion.

I guess we'll have to close down all the Christian book stores, or at least everything except the Bible shelves, because everything else is just opinion.

I'm going to give you a scripture verse: 2 Thessalonians 2:7


In modern English, the word "let" means to allow. But in King James English, it means exactly the opposite--to restrain, hold back.

How do I know that?. Would the Holy Spirit guide me to the right rendering? Possibly, by placing me under a teacher or preacher, or a linguist, who would explain it to me. But it's highly doubtful that He would place it directly in your mind.

Remember when Philip explained Isaiah 53 to the Ethiopian eunuch? The eunuch didn't understand what he was reading. So the Holy Spirit sent Philip to explain it.

What if the eunuch had told Philip, "well, that's just your opinion."

Well, I think I've made my point, and invite you to respond with your thoughts.[/QUO::smilewinkgrin::thumbsup::applause:

 

[Iconoclast]

Well..

Think that the creeds/confessions/other Christian Books etc are ALL useful IF they follow and adhere to sound Christian doctrine

Also think that all of these things are useful to help us grow in Christ

Also think that at times some p[ost the creeds so much to answer posts that it makes them seem more than the Bible!

JUST saying that ONLY inspired and FULLY authoratative source of the revelation from/of God is the Holy Spirit!

THAT is the one source HS will bring illumination to us from!

JF,
here is a hint....the confession lists verses on every point....the verses are the key thing that you are meant to read.see if it matches the explanation.

 

[preacher4truth]

:thumbs:

Let's be careful here. It sounds really spiritual to say that all we need are the scriptures and Holy Spirit illumination for spiritual growth.

If one carries that argument to its logical extension, then you must advocate that we close down this board, because everything we write involves expressing our opinions.

Then we shutdown all the publishing houses, including those which supply material to Sunday School teachers, because we don't need their stuff any more. It's just opinion. Of course, we won't need teachers, because anybody can stand there and read scripture. But spiritually-gifted teachers are specifically called for in the scriptures.

Next, we can do away with our preachers, since anybody can stand in the pulpit and read the scriptures. We can do that, sing a hymn or two, pray some, take up the offering and go home. Don't need preaching. But wait a minute. The scriptures specifically say we need pastors and teachers for the edifying of the church.

Wait a minute. We won't need hymns and gospel songs either, because those are just somebody's opinion.

I guess we'll have to close down all the Christian book stores, or at least everything except the Bible shelves, because everything else is just opinion.

I'm going to give you a scripture verse: 2 Thessalonians 2:7


In modern English, the word "let" means to allow. But in King James English, it means exactly the opposite--to restrain, hold back.

How do I know that?. Would the Holy Spirit guide me to the right rendering? Possibly, by placing me under a teacher or preacher, or a linguist, who would explain it to me. But it's highly doubtful that He would place it directly in your mind.

Remember when Philip explained Isaiah 53 to the Ethiopian eunuch? The eunuch didn't understand what he was reading. So the Holy Spirit sent Philip to explain it.

What if the eunuch had told Philip, "well, that's just your opinion."

Well, I think I've made my point, and invite you to respond with your thoughts.[/QUO::smilewinkgrin::thumbsup::applause:

If all we needed were the Bible and the Spirit, wonder why God gave us pastors and teachers? Wonder why some have written books and other works that have blessed so many? Wonder why some on here think anything other than the Bible alone is plain wrong? (Not anyone in this thread that I am aware of, so don't get twisted, OK?)

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; Ephesians 4:11

The reason is given in the next verse. He must have thought we needed them.

- Peace and Grace to His

 

[Iconoclast]

it will ALWAYS be same answer...

The Word of God!

God has promised to every Christian availability of the Illumination of HS to allow them to understand the bible and its teachings...

Not so anything else!

Jf,
this is spoken of here in point 6 of the confession;
perhaps you missed this when you read it before.....or did you avert your eyes from this doctrine of men?

6._____The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down or necessarily contained in the Holy Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelation of the Spirit, or traditions of men. Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word, and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.
( 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Galatians 1:8,9; John 6:45; 1 Corinthians 2:9-12; 1 Corinthians 11:13, 14; 1 Corinthians 14:26,40)

 

[quantumfaith]

JF,
here is a hint....the confession lists verses on every point....the verses are the key thing that you are meant to read.see if it matches the explanation.

The confessions are still interpretations of scriptures meaning and intent.

 

[Iconoclast]

Amen. No idea why the bb allows this to take place. Certainly this is "not showing grace to other members"...a violation.

Hey,Webdog.....looks like you and Robert Snow are doing the heavy lifting on this thread. I guess the topic of the thread has drawn you and robert like a moth to the flame......of course you two are pristine innocent posters....everyone else is doing something wrong
I do not think I have seen any robert snow post where he does anything positive, just keeps ripping down calvinism in his mind. I suppose we could say he shows love to the "brethren" by warning them of the evil calvinism...that most of the historic church has believed and most of the confessions hold to.
The problem is...what if calvinism is exactly what the bible teaches and all who oppose it are opposing the truth of God. { I use the if for the benefit of those who are not certain....so this thread does not get derailed,like the other one}
So when the calvinists gives scripture or opinion that is forbidden and should be censored in your view......you report more than Lois Lane did to Perry White. I think I understand.

 

[webdog]

The confessions are still interpretations of scriptures meaning and intent.

Exactly. Helpful? Can be. Inspired? Can be. One confession many turn to in support of augustine?s original sin is the Westminster. This same confession claims biblical truth in the need for infants to be baptized. Was that inspired? Hardly.

 

[Iconoclast]

The confessions are still interpretations of scriptures meaning and intent.

Quantum,
Yes they are . But anytime a christian opens there mouth or writes something that also is opinion and interpretation!
Doctrine is given to bring about unity of the faith....Amy G asked where?

11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

17This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

19Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20But ye have not so learned Christ;

21If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

AMY G...edifying is spiritual growth, The Spirit working through these means.

I think the attitudes and opposition in this thread explains the lack of unity when many here cannot identify with the historic faith,and make a stand.
I believe that is rebellion and sin against God, who has given gifts to the church to be used.....not despised.

 

[preacher4truth]

Hey,Webdog.....looks like you and Robert Snow are doing the heavy lifting on this thread. I guess the topic of the thread has drawn you and robert like a moth to the flame......of course you two are pristine innocent posters....everyone else is doing something wrong
I do not think I have seen any robert snow post where he does anything positive, just keeps ripping down calvinism in his mind. I suppose we could say he shows love to the "brethren" by warning them of the evil calvinism...that most of the historic church has believed and most of the confessions hold to.
The problem is...what if calvinism is exactly what the bible teaches and all who oppose it are opposing the truth of God. { I use the if for the benefit of those who are not certain....so this thread does not get derailed,like the other one}
So when the calvinists gives scripture or opinion that is forbidden and should be censored in your view......you report more than Lois Lane did to Perry White. I think I understand.

:thumbsup:

I've never seen more hypocrisy than his coming along rebuking others "not showing grace" for which he is quite notorious for himself on the BB. Rarely if ever have I seen any grace come from him. I got a good chuckle seeing him pat himself on the back as if he is some innocent bystander.

You're also correct concerning Robert Snow. I've never seen this from him either, of course now of late I skip his posts, so if there has been a change I've not noticed. Typically, there is nothing but negativity and mocking from him. He walks disorderly imo. I don't see much grace in his behavior. Maybe a good walk with God would help them both.

 

[Iconoclast]

Exactly. Helpful? Can be. Inspired? Can be. One confession many turn to in support of augustine?s original sin is the Westminster. This same confession claims biblical truth in the need for infants to be baptized. Was that inspired? Hardly.

WEbdog...that is exactly the point.....if you believe in infant head sprinkling go with the 1644...at least there would be unity!

Some who say no confession, no creed...have one anyway. I bet no one is welcome to light candles in your local assembly and start chanting hare krisna chants.....you have some basis derived from scripture that you can appeal to.

baptists have used several confessions .....if a person cannot agree to some standard....there can be no unity...just look here for proof of that.
Everyone says they believe the bible.......

 

[webdog]

Hey,Webdog.....looks like you and Robert Snow are doing the heavy lifting on this thread. I guess the topic of the thread has drawn you and robert like a moth to the flame......of course you two are pristine innocent posters....everyone else is doing something wrong
I do not think I have seen any robert snow post where he does anything positive, just keeps ripping down calvinism in his mind. I suppose we could say he shows love to the "brethren" by warning them of the evil calvinism...that most of the historic church has believed and most of the confessions hold to.
The problem is...what if calvinism is exactly what the bible teaches and all who oppose it are opposing the truth of God. { I use the if for the benefit of those who are not certain....so this thread does not get derailed,like the other one}
So when the calvinists gives scripture or opinion that is forbidden and should be censored in your view......you report more than Lois Lane did to Perry White. I think I understand.

Unworthy of a response. Next...

 

[Amy.G]

21If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

Exactly. Taught by HIM.

AMY G...edifying is spiritual growth, The Spirit working through these means.

Yes, it is the Spirit working that causes growth. God certainly uses teachers, but it is God that causes the growth.

I think the attitudes and opposition in this thread explains the lack of unity when many here cannot identify with the historic faith,and make a stand.
I believe that is rebellion and sin against God, who has given gifts to the church to be used.....not despised.

I am not rebelling against God nor despising teachers of the faith. But they are merely a vehicle God uses, not a replacement for the Holy Spirit.

 

[preacher4truth]

Unworthy of a response. Next...

Truth warrants a response from you typically. Generally a fight against it is the norm, Icon has spoken the truth. Why not now?

 

[Iconoclast]

Exactly. Taught by HIM.


Yes, it is the Spirit working that causes growth. God certainly uses teachers, but it is God that causes the growth.



I am not rebelling against God nor despising teachers of the faith. But they are merely a vehicle God uses, not a replacement for the Holy Spirit.

AMYG
ok...it is good that you are not rebelling against truth.....but let me ask you a question.....when I posted from the 1689...on the holy scriptures....did you see anything in it that works against the Spirit? or do they attempt to layout the truth of scripture on these matters?
Why not give it a good read...looking up the verses offered....

I can tell you I do not agree with every single point.....but that is my right before God. I do not have to believe the confession if I think it does not reflect the scriptural teaching....
give it a read...let me know if you think it is a very helpful tool...or just man made and foolish.
http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc00.html:thumbs:

 

[J.D.]

1 Corinthians 1:12-13 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Calvin; and I of Arminius; and I of the Pope; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Calvin crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Arminius?



I don't see any difference when I substitute the names. Paul was right and labelers are wrong.

Some of us are just trying to speak to the OP. And I just want to go on record that I have not labeled any PERSON on BB an anything, but tried to identify doctrines that are associated with Arminianism and Pelegianism, except that I mentioned Drfruss because I believe he openly identifies himself as an Arminian.

 

[webdog]

WEbdog...that is exactly the point.....if you believe in infant head sprinkling go with the 1644...at least there would be unity!

Some who say no confession, no creed...have one anyway. I bet no one is welcome to light candles in your local assembly and start chanting hare krisna chants.....you have some basis derived from scripture that you can appeal to.

baptists have used several confessions .....if a person cannot agree to some standard....there can be no unity...just look here for proof of that.
Everyone says they believe the bible.......

Where have I ever remotely alluded to the fact there are no standards to be agreed on? You have stated yourself you do not agree to everything in the 1689...so what point are you making?

 

[Rippon]

Back to the OP - Drfruss is the only one I know of on BB that openly proclaims himself to be Arminian. I think he must be Free Will Baptist.

I actually have more respect for his theology than I do the "don't label me" crowd, because at least Drfruss is faithfully consistent to his system, and the "don't label me crowd" tends to be Pelagian, not Arminian. Anyone that believes that saving faith is a natural posession and can be exercised in human power and will is Pelagian, not Arminian.

There have been at least a half dozen or so who have identified themselves as Arminian just as John Wesley did. I can't remember them all.These are just a few.


Pipedude who hasn't posted anything for a long time.
StefanM who goes along with four Arminian points.
Skandelon who sides with the Arminians.

 

[J.D.]

There have been at least a half dozen or so who have identified themselves as Arminian just as John Wesley did. I can't remember them all.These are just a few.


Pipedude who hasn't posted anything for a long time.
StefanM who goes along with four Arminian points.
Skandelon who sides with the Arminians.

Ah yes, Pipedude. I remember now that you mention him - I may be confusing Drfruss with Pipedude.

 

[Skandelon]

Skandelon who sides with the Arminians.

1. I generally accept this "label" as simply in reference to rejecting the premise of Calvinism which teaches that God has pre-selected a certain number of people who He will irresistibly save while leaving the rest in their hopeless condition.

2. Though I'll concede that 'Arminianism' today is generally understood as rejecting the concept of "once saved always saved," it should be noted that Jacobus Arminius himself didn't necessarily believe this. He only acknowledged the difficulty of some passages which seemed to suggest the loss of something once possessed. He never took a hard stance on the issue.

3. If you've never read Arminius' works for yourself, I highly recommend it. He sounds like many Calvinistic preachers today. He greatly emphasizes the glory, sovereignty and greatness of our God, while clearly rejecting easy believism, peligianism, and other false teachings. He is much closer to Calvinism than most people realize.