Who did Christ die for? part//

James, your posts make absolutely no sense. The jumping back and forth with the "I said" then "you said" is confusing. What didn't I answer about Cain? What are you talking about? God's permissive will? His declarative will? What?

If Abimilech didn't sin...why did Abraham have to pray for him so that the "curse" would be lifted from him and his family? What was the curse?

Let's play along with you on this one, though. God said Abimilech was a dead man, did He not? Did He say "potential dead man"?

If I get what you are saying...you can take another man's wife, planning on having relations with her...but as long as you don't touch her, it's all good. Is that accurate?

Do you understand the implications of adultery in biblical times? As you probably know, it was condemned as a violation of the husbands rights. Women were the "property" of their husbands, so it was identified with theft, aggravated theft, as the "property" was highly valued. But none of this matters...James says it's not sin, I guess even theft....

What does Deuteronomy 22:22 say... "If any man commit adultery with the wife of another and defile his neighbor's wife, let them be put to death both the adulterer and the adulteress"

It seems clear from this passage sexual relations was listed as a separate action from adultery. Jesus says if we even look upon a woman with lust we have committed...what?...adultery with her in your heart. You don't have to physically touch another man's wife to commit adultery!

 

Sovreignty

I love God's sovreignty because He can do as He pleases. He doesn't need our permission to save His people the way He wants to.

God word says if you believe in Jesus you will be saved and and if you don't you will be condemned.

What makes God sovreign has nothing to do with making our choice for us, but what does is that His word happens.

A sovreign king can't make you make the choices you make, but he will give you the concequenses of your choice and if those consequeses isn't fullfilled then he ain't sovreign.

So no matter what men may say trust in Jesus and God has made a promise to you, that you will not be disappointed.

 

Wow! I'm dizzy from all this spinning. You'll go to virtually any length to avoid admitting you're wrong. That's - er - impressive, sort of.

 

No, but AGAIN (and AGAIN) you keep taking things OUT OF CONTEXT. And it is about to get on my nerves by the lot of you. Please stop trying to tell me what I am telling you. Here is what I said:
"The fixation of His love is determinded by man acceptance of God and His truth, just as you have quoted from many verses and your right there are many more. But that determining was known to God from the outset and thus apart His purpose and plan that it might be to His good pleasure.
Now can you get it right this time?

Regarding the fixation of His love is IN TIME. How so? Because they were not born saved, thus they were under the wrath of the God until they believed and set AT THAT MOMENT as Sons and the propitiation which is through faith is obtained. Thus His Love is 'fixated' IN TIME.

No, you just said that.
I said that it was Gods decision to chose to Love those whom He knew will be of faith. You can not scripturally prove otherwise because you have no clue why God chose you but you affirm God did. I say the scripture is replete with passages that can and I beleive do show, this was an aspect of why God chose us. However you can not prove He did not chose us with this in mind ANYWHERE in scripture.

And another thing: Faith is not a work based on Rom 4:4-6.

I LOVE this: Ready, I hope so.
God has written the law upon the hearts/conscience of men unless of course God lied about that. Men KNOW basic good and evil, right and wrong. So your example begins FALSLY according to God.

Cain knew it was wrong to kill his brother, did God give you some new revelation that he did not. - Have you been listening to Benny Hinn again :laugh: j/k

The conscience has always been in and with man. Again, when you begin falsly you will get a false conclusion.

Yes James it does, and that is what gets your proverbial goat. Just read verse 18 while your at it for context (he that believes in not condemned, but he that does not - is condemned) They must reject truth so as to be given over to their lawlessness (I do believe that is what Rom 1, 2 Thes 2, Prov 1:22-33 - this is almost endless )

AND it is NOT jealous, AND it states it NEVER exaults itself, AND it NEVER seeks to have or desires for it's own way.
Selective reading??

The FACT that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked should make sense to you, in light of the fact that love never fails. God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked because God does loves His creation and the very apex of His creation is mankind. For God so loved the world, He sent... But this does love must be receieved/believed and so the world must believe and live or reject and die. And in their death the Lord takes no pleasure.

I didn't pass it over. God does not rejoice in wrongdoing which is knowingly doing something another does not like, but love does rejoice with the truth or with one who does what is right toward the other.. I never said God enjoys the unrighteous but He commands all men everywhere to repent. Why make that Command If that is NOTwhat He truly desires. Does that mean God failed?
Of course not.

No James that IS NOT what it says because the context is dealing with how we show love towards others. But YOU began comparing Him to the 1 Cor 13 passages and I am showing you is that you are twisting chapter 13 all out of proportion and context to try to point a point.

Agape characterizes God and the rendering of 1 Cor 13 is not given to define how God loves but the Love that His followers should exibit to Characterize them as well. It was given to define love for us to know how to walk in it, not to define God by it.

Thus Agape love is the epitome of God's character.

 

For the Abimelech discussioin. This is from a discussion James and myself had A LONG TIME AGO in a thread - Robots in heaven? Found here:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=33000&highlight=Abimelech
Minor word adjustments made.

 

If you continue with this childishness, I wont even respond anymore. You are either not reading or purposely misleading but in either case it is enough!

No you misdirect and mislead as you neglect the rest and thus sets up the context.
"But that determining was known to God from the outset and thus apart His purpose and plan that it might be to His good pleasure.
And in case you really can't understand the above - determining is the same as choosing.
Now can you get it right this time?"

Wrong James, You believe God controls man. (go back to the Robot thread and reveiw)
Again you are taking it out of context and not reading what was written. But that is your best argument isn't it? :BangHead:
Mans 'determining' or choosing fixates or bring into manifestation Gods Love that GOD first determined he would lavish upon who would believe. It was Gods choice to love them that would believe him.

IOW- God chose to set His love upon a people, and then chose whom He would love - those who would be of faith.

They would not have the choice unless God determined to give it , and there would be no love given unless God determined to give it , and there would be no grace if God did not detmine to give it, but no man is saved unless that man believes based upon all the above.

No, but what else is new. I said man chooses and God fixates His Love IN TIME, but outside of time (in Eternity) His love is already fixated. Man is not born saved. Man is not born justified. Man is not born sanctified. So when is Gods love given that He is saved, justified, and sanctified? Scripture states at the moment he believes. Does God love him He foreknew? Yes, but it is not fixated upon him IN TIME until that man believes.

Diversion and misrepresentation. James this borders on either ignorance or blatant deception. I have NEVER ONCE made ANY SUCH statement.
"I said that it was Gods decision to chose to Love those whom He knew will be of faith. ... I say the scripture is replete with passages that can and I beleive do show, this was an aspect of why God chose us. However you can not prove He did not chose us with this in mind ANYWHERE in scripture." If that isn't clear enough, read the above again.
It was Gods who determined to display His love upon those of faith, or He could have displayed His love on those of blue eyes, or breathed oxygen. The fact God determined to do such through His grace proves He loved us first - HELLO!!

In control or controling?
The disciples DID chose to be there. After many of His disciples left in John 6, did not Jesus ask them, will you go away to?
Why ask if they had no choice?

THIS is pure silliness. It is NOT translated by any means FORE-LOVED but fore-KNEW. It directly states a knowledge and implies a love as well. You should not distort scripture so blatantely to interpose a theological view. Yes it implies a love toward but directly speaks to His knowledge of.

What you asserted countlessly is that the Holy Spirit MUST control you to come because you have no choice in the matter.
However, I agree with what you specifically wrote. In that man of nor by himself can come to God but God must come to man. And through the work of the Holy Spirit (convicting men of Sin, His Rightousness, and Judgment to come) man would continue without God.

No one affirms Pelegainism. That being - Man comes to God without God DOING ANYTHING toward man to bring Him. And that though grace is a nice benifit it is not necessary. You seem to forget I actually know what the 'ism' are. No one can believe the Gospel apart from the work of the Holy Spirit. You just believe the Spirit of God makes or controls men TO believe. I believe the Holy Spirit reveals the scriptures/truth and man must either accept or reject them.
1 Thes 1:4,5

This can be used for both your view and mine since it makes mention of the Spirits work but not HOW he worked it. How about Proverbs 1:22-33 or Romans 1:18-32, or 2 Thes 2:10-12 - and all the other scriptures that state 'believe and be saved, or reject and be damned. Nowhere in scripture does it state that God controls man that man will be saved. Nor does it states anywhere outside of mens postulation that the unregenerate when the Holy Spirit is at work and reveals truth the unregenerate can not respond in a positive way. Actaully scripture says the opposite (thus all the 'choose' and 'believe' and 'harden not your heart' scriptures).

That is not REMOTELY what the text means. They were already Gods people (thus the term 'sons') and under judgment for being AS A NATION, faithlessness. God healing their faithlessness IS NOT God giving them faith my friend. That would be a HORRIBLE rendering that I would only presume of those at TBN doing. No that is NOT what it means at all. NOTICE what God tells then FIRST - THEY must return AND THEN God will heal their faithlessness or forgive them for their faithlessness.

I did not 'give control' God Himself gave man a choice. God does not control men to be saved James, that has NO biblical basis whatsoever. God has set a choice to man and that was His choosing. Return, Repent, Believe, Choose, Harden not YOUR hearts, and list goes on and on. God did it James, not I.

Really? Who said. God reveals truth and we are judged by what we do with it. God HAD to stop Abimelech however, because if Abimelech would have had sexual relations and thus consumate the marriage with Sarah. And if that happened her child that was to be born according to the promise of God would NOT have been Abrahams but Abimelech's. Thus God HAD to intervene due to Abrahams lack of faith (and creating the mess) for the sake of His own word/promise.

 

Something I didn't think about the first time you used this argument is in that last statement of yours that I bolded.

If God could have determined to display His love upon those of "blue eyes, who is responsible for creating people with blue eyes. God is, then hasn't He just determined exactly who He will love and choose by giving certain ones blue eyes?

And the same with the criteria being those who "breathed oxygen". If he's the one who endows people with the ability to breath oxygen, then He is the one who is really determining not only the criteria, but the group who match that criteria.

That's why I think that no matter what criteria the Bible gives, it is God who is responsible for giving that ability to those people.

 

I knew when I wrote this, THAT would be the very argument to come up :laugh:

However, the question then comes also, Did God make those certain people TO HAVE Blue eyes so they could be saved, or to breath Oxygen to be saved. '
OR
Did He choose what He chose according to those attributes of all men which was in conjunction to or in line with His determinate Counsil to save .

 

*edited by the Holy Spirit...

 

If God chooses based on an attribute of man, that means God is basically saying, "I will choose you if you do this or that, or you are like this or that". I think Paul makes it clear that God chose him based on nothing more than it was God's will to do so. In fact, I think Paul is our best example of election in the whole Bible.

Paul hated and persecuted the church. He had no intention of being the preacher to the Gentiles. He was fully convinced that he was on a Godly mission to imprison and kill Christians, until God stopped him dead in his tracks. There is nothing in the account of Paul's conversion that even remotely suggests that he chose Christ. Quite the contrary, Christ chose him:

 

Amy, Paul is one example of election in the Bible. Is the same true with God's sovereign election of Judas?
All elect are chosen...but not all chosen are the elect.

Let me ask this: Was Paul forced to obey after being confronted? If so...what happened with Jonah who had a similar experience?

 

God did not elect Judas for salvation. He elected him for a purpose.

But, it was still God who did the electing because of His authority to do so.

 

Bingo! So is Paul's election the best example of election in the Bible, particularly to being elected for salvation?

I edited my above post while you were posting this comparing Jonah's "election" with Pauls...

 

At least you admit Paul was elected. If you've been elected, will unelect yourself?

No, I don't see any evidence of Paul being forced. But, God had to open his eyes to be able to see the truth. Once Paul saw Christ and the truth, he submitted. He said yes to God but not because he couldn't do anything else, but because he wouldn't do anything else.
The same thing happened with the 2 men on the road to Emmaus:

No one can "see" God unless God chooses to reveal Himself to them.

 

He is the best example in my mind because it is so clear cut. Not to mention that Paul himself says many, many times that he was chosen by the will of God, not of himself.

 

WD, I'm enjoying our discussion, but I have to go for awhile. I hope we can continue this later today.

 

I don't think I've ever denied election. There is different "choosings" within election, wouldn't you agree?

I agree our eyes need to be opened to receive truth. Why did Paul submit...and not Jonah?

Amen! The difference between my beliefs, and your new found beliefs is that I believe God chooses to reveal himself to all mankind.

 

Me too! :thumbs:

I like not being talked down to. It's a novel approach

 

All Ye who call upon the name of the LOrd shall be saved.
FOr God So loved the World that He gave his only begotten SOn that whosoever call upon the name of the Lord Shall be saved.
Faithgirl