If you continue with this childishness, I wont even respond anymore. You are either not reading or purposely misleading but in either case it is enough!
Jarthur001 said:
Your Words. I changed nothing but make them larger.
No you misdirect and mislead as you neglect the rest and thus sets up the context.
"
But that determining was known to God from the outset and thus apart His purpose and plan that it might be to His good pleasure.
And in case you really can't understand the above - determining is the same as choosing.
Now can you get it right this time?"
Man determinds....or GOD does. I say God is in control...you say Man. If you don't mean it...fine change your words. But that is the words you used. Not once....not 2 times....but now five times...going back to the other thread.
Wrong James, You believe God controls man. (go back to the Robot thread and reveiw)
Again you are taking it out of context and not reading what was written. But that is your best argument isn't it? :BangHead:
Mans 'determining' or choosing fixates or bring into manifestation Gods Love that GOD
first determined he would lavish upon who would believe. It was Gods choice to love them that would believe him.
IOW- God chose to set His love upon a people, and then chose whom He would love - those who would be of faith.
They would not have the choice unless God determined to give it , and there would be no love given unless God determined to give it , and there would be no grace if God did not detmine to give it, but no man is saved unless that man believes based upon all the above.
you said above..man chooses....then God loves.
No, but what else is new. I said man chooses and God fixates His Love IN TIME, but outside of time (in Eternity) His love is already fixated. Man is not born saved. Man is not born justified. Man is not born sanctified. So when is Gods love given that He is saved, justified, and sanctified? Scripture states at the moment he believes. Does God love him He foreknew? Yes, but it is not fixated upon him IN TIME until that man believes.
You say I can not prove God loves us 1st.
Diversion and misrepresentation. James this borders on either ignorance or blatant deception. I have NEVER ONCE made ANY SUCH statement.
"I said that it was Gods decision to chose to Love those whom He knew will be of faith. ... I say the scripture is replete with passages that can and I beleive do show, this was an aspect of why God chose us. However you can not prove He did not chose us
with this in mind ANYWHERE in scripture." If that isn't clear enough, read the above again.
It was Gods who determined to display His love upon those of faith, or He could have displayed His love on those of blue eyes, or breathed oxygen. The fact God determined to do such through His grace proves He loved us first - HELLO!!
"You did not choose me, but I chose you," Jesus says to the eleven apostles.
Now if Christ had said "You chose me, I did not chose you". this would follow Freewillism. It would be like Christ was saying..."I'm here...you guys can hang out with me if you want....but its your choice." At the same time...because it is their choice they could leave any time they want. Which goes hand in hand with Freewillism. Calvinism teachs God is in control from the beginning to the end
In control or controling?
The disciples DID chose to be there. After many of His disciples left in John 6, did not Jesus ask them, will you go away to?
Why ask if they had no choice?
"For whom He FORE-LOVED He also predestined..."
THIS is pure silliness. It is NOT translated by any means FORE-LOVED but fore-KNEW. It directly states a knowledge and implies a love as well. You should not distort scripture so blatantely to interpose a theological view. Yes it implies a love toward but directly speaks to His knowledge of.
This has nothing to do with the subject but I will reply anyway.
I agree. I have never said faith was a work. I understand that some do say this. I do not agree with this. But we make it into a work as soon as we view it as something we can autonomously come up with, apart from any work of the Holy Spirit
What you asserted countlessly is that the Holy Spirit MUST control you to come because you have no choice in the matter.
However, I agree with what you specifically wrote. In that man of nor by himself can come to God but God must come to man. And through the work of the Holy Spirit (convicting men of Sin, His Rightousness, and Judgment to come) man would continue without God.
Those who believe we can, from our own resources, change our naturally unregenerate hardened hearts in some way that is independent of God are promoting rank Pelagianism. Ask yourself, can you believe the gospel apart from ANY work of the Holy Spirit?
No one affirms Pelegainism. That being - Man comes to God without God DOING ANYTHING toward man to bring Him. And that though grace is a nice benifit it is not necessary. You seem to forget I actually know what the 'ism' are. No one can believe the Gospel apart from the work of the Holy Spirit. You just believe the Spirit of God makes or controls men TO believe. I believe the Holy Spirit reveals the scriptures/truth and man must either accept or reject them.
1 Thes 1:4,5
4Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
5For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
This can be used for both your view and mine since it makes mention of the Spirits work but not HOW he worked it. How about Proverbs 1:22-33 or Romans 1:18-32, or 2 Thes 2:10-12 - and all the other scriptures that state 'believe and be saved, or reject and be damned. Nowhere in scripture does it state that God controls man that man will be saved. Nor does it states anywhere outside of mens postulation that the unregenerate when the Holy Spirit is at work and reveals truth the unregenerate can not respond in a positive way. Actaully scripture says the opposite (thus all the 'choose' and 'believe' and 'harden not your heart' scriptures).
God commands us to come to Him but unregenerate man is faithless. The reason for this is that he is by nature unspiritual w/o the Holy Spirit. That is why through the prophet Jeremiah, God makes the promise, "I will heal your faithlessness" (Jer 3:22).
22 "Return, O faithless sons; I will heal your faithlessness."
"Behold, we come to you, for you are the LORD our God.
That is not REMOTELY what the text means. They were already Gods people (thus the term 'sons') and under judgment for being AS A NATION, faithlessness. God healing their faithlessness IS NOT God giving them faith my friend. That would be a HORRIBLE rendering that I would only presume of those at TBN doing. No that is NOT what it means at all. NOTICE what God tells then FIRST - THEY must
return AND THEN God
will heal their faithlessness or forgive them for their faithlessness.
Having said all of that, it still has nothing to do with your giving the control into mans hands.
I did not 'give control' God Himself gave man a choice. God does not control men to be saved James, that has NO biblical basis whatsoever. God has set a choice to man and that was His choosing. Return, Repent, Believe, Choose, Harden not YOUR hearts, and list goes on and on. God did it James, not I.
However..not all of men come and have God stop them from sinning as in Abimelech.
Really? Who said. God reveals truth and we are judged by what we do with it. God HAD to stop Abimelech however, because if Abimelech would have had sexual relations and thus consumate the marriage with Sarah. And if that happened her child that was to be born according to the promise of God would NOT have been Abrahams but Abimelech's. Thus God HAD to intervene due to Abrahams lack of faith (and creating the mess) for the sake of His own word/promise.
