Who did Christ die for? part//

[Allan]

And I agree one does not have to be born with blue eyes. In fact, to make the analogy stick, we need to suppose that none of us were born with blue eyes, yet we all need to have blue eyes for salvation.

No, that would ONLY stick concerning YOUR view.

You believe that man in his fallen nature has the desire and ability to choose the required blue eyes instead of his brown ones.

Absolutely wrong. Man doesn't even know (in his fallen state) he needs anything for salvation much less that he is need OF it, therefore his ability to choose is useless to him since he doesn't know he even HAS a choice. In point of fact since man doesn't know he is lost there is no 'desire' in himself to be saved at least until the Holy Spirit begins His work of convicting by revealing truth to man.

I believe that man in his fallen nature has no desire or ability to choose the required blue eyes.

We can prove man has no desire by or of himself (IOW - without Gods intervention), but you can't prove biblically that man does not have the ability to choose. That is one of the issues that has remained debatable for hundreds of years and have never moved to the immutable truths we all hold most dear. YOu are still trying to put the illistration into your view as man not having something and God must give it to him. THAT was not the intent of the illistration. It was that God can determine by what means and thereform who He will save.

But that God must give man the desire and ability to have the required blue eyes and that God in eternity past, did elect which were to be given the desire and ability to have blue eyes.

YOu just proved my point. You took what I said and transformed it into your view rather than keeping it the way it was intended.

I understand the point and the illustration.

Actaully, it seems you missed it :laugh:

Okay. I have to stop you here.
I do believe that God's election has to do with faith, but it is a faith that He gave me to believe His Word.

Ok, lets discuss this. Do you believe that man is without faith or belief any type? IOW - a common faith.
I elaborate much more here with a Calvinist brother (more specifically the later portion regarding common faith):
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1100519&postcount=43
and here:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1101242&postcount=49

Could God or was God able to have chosen to save men via an attribute common within all men. Was that not possible for God to do??

Both of the above posts are from this thread here:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=43208&page=7

So my being chosen is not because of my faith

Only in your view. My side would not be here for the last 2 thousand years of Church history if it was not also substantiated in the scriptures.
See, no one disputes that it was God who chose us. That is plain as day from the scriptures. What IS debatable is the how and why because scriptures do not specifically state this. What it DOES tell us is that God decreed in conjunction with what God forknew and nothing more.

(foreseen faith as some might believe)

See, this is continuously used and patently false. God did not have to 'look into the future' or foresee anything. He knew already all things that can be known.

So it's not that I deny that faith has to do with election. I deny that the source of my faith is found within me of my own free choice.

This is the one of the main problems in your view. It can not be substantiated. What we do not all (as in mankind have) have is Christ (faith in the noun sense) but what we DO all have is the capsity OF faith (in the verb sense). God has NO NEED to give to you what you already are in possession of. What God DID give and scripture is specific concerning it, is Christ. But faith is common to all men where as Christ is not.

I don't see those as reasons. I see both of those as the means of His election.

I agree with you that 'reasons' was not a good word for what I intending. And yes I agree that 'means' in much more appropriet since this is the means whereby God Elected us. The text states that we are choosen to salvation through the work of the Spirit and us believing. You can even remove the words 'to salvation' without doing any harm to rendering (for our purposes at least) - You are choosen...through the world of the Spirit and our belief. The 'to salvation' merely establishes 'what' you were chosen for, and the 'through' establishes why you were chosen.

He brings about my faith through the working of the Holy Spirit which results in my believing the truth.

I agree . He brought about my faith through the work of the Holy Spirit resulting in my believing the truth.

The working of the Spirit produces the belief that is necessary to obtain salvation.

The working of the Spirit does not always produce belief, I'm afraid. It does fulfill the Will of God in its conviction, and reveals God's righteousness and Judgment to come but it does not always produce faith. There are many who know spiritual truths (of which none can know except they be revealed by God to man) and they did not/will not believe. As in Rom 1:18-33 or Heb 3:8-19, or 2 Thes 2:10-12 are just a few examples:
Rom 1 They know God and reject Him, therefore God gives the over...

Hbr 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Hbr 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

They heard God speaking to them (revealing truth to them) and THEY hardened THEIR OWN hearts. Now you might argue they were not regenerate and that is why 'they' did it. But that would make no sense them to the Apostle Paul's plea NOT TO harden your hearts. Apparently Paul thought they could yeild and accept or harden and reject, thus Paul is pleading with them. And Paul states they did not enter because of unbelief (they hardened their hearts when God was speaking to them to believe).

And 2 Thes 2 shows they did not receive the truth that could save them.

We are responding with belief (faith) to the renewing and rebirthing of our heart(nature, will, etc.) which is done by the Holy Spirit. That initial working of the Holy Spirit is what we call regeneration. My mind or will has been regenerated so that it produces the faith that the Holy Spirit graciously provides.

Hmm.... This so?
I encourage you to come to this thread and share:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=43205&page=7

Without both, the plan of salvation is incomplete.

Agreed.

 

[Amy.G]

Originally posted by Allan
We can prove man has no desire by or of himself (IOW - without Gods intervention), but you can't prove biblically that man does not have the ability to choose.

Man has no desire for God, but he has the ability to choose that which he does not desire?

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Allan, my reply may take some time.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Man has no desire for God, but he has the ability to choose that which he does not desire?

Good insight Amy.
That's one of the things I was going to address as well.
Thanks for saving me part of a post.

 

[webdog]

Man has no desire for God, but he has the ability to choose that which he does not desire?

Man has a desire to be immortal (Ecc. 3:11). How did that get into man, and for what purpose?

 

[Isaiah40:28]

This is what I asked earlier:

I ask, if the criteria could easily have been blue-eyes as determined by a sovereign God, then how does one choose to have blue eyes in order to meet the criteria?

You said that people don't have to be born with blue eyes, they just had to have blue eyes.
How does that answer my question above?

Absolutely wrong. Man doesn't even know (in his fallen state) he needs anything for salvation much less that he is need OF it,

Say what? Fallen man does not know that he is need of salvation?

We can prove man has no desire by or of himself (IOW - without Gods intervention), but you can't prove biblically that man does not have the ability to choose.

You're right, I can't prove it to you, but that's because your view of certain passages will indefintely be different than mine, I'm almost sure. If you agreed with the passages that Calvinists think support this view, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. It's a matter of interpretation.

Ok, lets discuss this. Do you believe that man is without faith or belief any type? IOW - a common faith.

I'm not familiar with the term, "a common faith" and I'm not sure I understand the question. Does man have faith or belief with regards to what? Sitting in chairs and stuff?

Could God or was God able to have chosen to save men via an attribute common within all men. Was that not possible for God to do??

I don't know how to answer this. What do you mean?

Only in your view.

So my being chosen is not because of my faith.

But later, you'll say that "through the work of the Spirit and our belief in the truth" are not "reasons", as you first said, but that my use of "means" is more appropriate.
But here you seem to be saying that in your view, our belief is a "reason" for our election. You seem to be contradicting yourself.

My side would not be here for the last 2 thousand years of Church history if it was not also substantiated in the scriptures.

That's a poor argument. There are lots of false teachings that have survived 2000years that are not substantiated in the Bible. Arianism continues to this day in modern forms such as the JW's and Oneness Pentecostals.

See, no one disputes that it was God who chose us.
That is plain as day from the scriptures. What IS debatable is the how and why because scriptures do not specifically state this.

But you state below that "why" we are chosen is established by the "through".

and the 'through' establishes why you were chosen.

You seem to be arguing that we know both the "how and the why" from verses like 2 Thess. 2:13. I don't understand why you say the "scriptures do not specifically state this". Do you think 2 Thess. states this or not?

What it DOES tell us is that God decreed in conjunction with what God forknew and nothing more.

Yeah, I meant to ask you to elaborate on that statement. We don't even agree on what "foreknow" means.

See, this is continuously used and patently false. God did not have to 'look into the future' or foresee anything. He knew already all things that can be known.

Allan, I try to write carefully. I only wish you tried to read carefully.
Let's see what I originally wrote:

(foreseen faith as some might believe)

I wrote, "some", not intending you.
IOW, Classical Arminians.
There are "some" who believe this. Actually I believed this until about 5 years ago.

This is the one of the main problems in your view. It can not be substantiated. What we do not all (as in mankind have) have is Christ (faith in the noun sense) but what we DO all have is the capsity OF faith (in the verb sense). God has NO NEED to give to you what you already are in possession of. What God DID give and scripture is specific concerning it, is Christ. But faith is common to all men where as Christ is not.

Capacity of faith?
I'm still not sure what you mean by the idea of "common faith" that apparantly all men have which is why you state men have the "capacity of faith".

I agree with you that 'reasons' was not a good word for what I intending. And yes I agree that 'means' in much more appropriet since this is the means whereby God Elected us.

I think I could have been more clear, cause I'm not sure we agree.
God accomplishes His plan of election by 1) the work of the Holy Spirit 2) and our belief.
The elect are sanctified by the Holy Spirit and thus we believe.

The text states that we are choosen to salvation through the work of the Spirit and us believing. You can even remove the words 'to salvation' without doing any harm to rendering (for our purposes at least) - You are choosen...through the world of the Spirit and our belief. The 'to salvation' merely establishes 'what' you were chosen for, and the 'through' establishes why you were chosen.

Yeah, I don't think we're on the same page.
I don't see "through" establishing why we are chosen.
You seem to be saying again, that the work of the Holy Spirit is the reason why we were chosen. I know you didn't use the word, "reason" here, but you seem to be implying it again.
What are we chosen for?
salvation (agreed)
Why are we chosen?
"through the work of the Spirit"(not agreed)
that phrase does not answer the "why". It is not a reason for our election. It is one of the means by which God accomplishes His plan of election.
Webdog is trying to say the same thing.
It just doesn't work.
God's means for accomplishing something are not the same as His reasons for accomplishing something. Remember the discussion with Alex in the logic and attribute thread?

You seem to be confusing how God accomplishes our election with His reasons for our election.
We know how He accomplishes it, 1)through the work of the Holy Spirit and 2)our belief in the truth.
Why He elects us to salvation(His reasons) is what we really do not know.
And there's no shame in admitting that we do not know.
At least not for me.

I agree . He brought about my faith through the work of the Holy Spirit resulting in my believing the truth.

yes, that's how He accomplished his election. Those are the means, not the reasons.

The working of the Spirit does not always produce belief, I'm afraid. It does fulfill the Will of God in its conviction, and reveals God's righteousness and Judgment to come but it does not always produce faith. There are many who know spiritual truths (of which none can know except they be revealed by God to man) and they did not/will not believe. As in Rom 1:18-33 or Heb 3:8-19, or 2 Thes 2:10-12 are just a few examples:
Rom 1 They know God and reject Him, therefore God gives the over...

They heard God speaking to them (revealing truth to them) and THEY hardened THEIR OWN hearts. Now you might argue they were not regenerate and that is why 'they' did it. But that would make no sense them to the Apostle Paul's plea NOT TO harden your hearts. Apparently Paul thought they could yeild and accept or harden and reject, thus Paul is pleading with them. And Paul states they did not enter because of unbelief (they hardened their hearts when God was speaking to them to believe).

And 2 Thes 2 shows they did not receive the truth that could save them.

Not sure how my statement caused you to answer this way. This is all I said:

The working of the Spirit produces the belief that is necessary to obtain salvation.

Our belief which is necessary to obtain salvation is produced by a working of the Holy Spirit.
What you read into that about unbelief and the Holy Spirit was not even addressed in my statement. That's another topic.

Hmm.... This so?
I encourage you to come to this thread and share:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=43205&page=7

We'll see.

 

[psalms109:31]

Desire for God

2 Corinthians 3
"The Glory of the New Covenant
7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

12Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away."

You don't have to have a desire for God. God is asking us to take a leap of faith. To turn to Jesus. Without any desire and He will remove the veil.

How can a dead man do this without the Father drawing them or the big reason for them being dead. The answer is easy but for the wise and learned. Jesus words is not His own but the Father who sent Him, and Jesus words are Spirit and they are life. Through His words we are given the roads to believe and be saved or not and be condemned and because His words are Spirit and life whosoever can believe.

It is the work of God that you believe so just turn to Jesus and let Him open your eyes.