pinoybaptist said:
Helen:
Your whole thesis is dependent on the Bible being written and addressed to all humankind, which it is not.
Baloney. Before Abraham lived, Job lived. He is Jobab, the thirteenth son of Joktan the nephew of Peleg. He wrote, "I know that my Redeemer lives." Job 19:25.
Go back further. Noah was a preacher of righteousness. All righteousness is in Christ Jesus. The Promise of God was known from the beginning and was for all people, which is why God told Abraham
"...all the peoples on earth will be blessed through you." Genesis 12:3
And again, are you trying to say that only the chosen labor and are heavy-laden? Jesus said, clearly, "Come unto me ALL ye that labor and are heavy-laden."
The Promise of God has been known from the time of Adam and Eve. Christ is the fulfillment of that Promise. The Gospel, in one form or another, has been available to every man who ever lived so that each person may choose for himself how to respond to God.
The Bible itself is a compilation of the histories and other writings set down by the Jews, whom God chose to reveal Himself to the WORLD. The Bible is for everyone.
And I know quite a few people who are quite expert in knowing what the Bible says who are in no way, shape, or form believers. A great many people are curious about it who are not believers. Thank God sometimes those who are curious recognize the truth and become believers.
The Bible was written for God's people, and only for God's people,
No, it was written for Gentiles, too....
just as Christ's blood was shed only for His own, and for nobody else but His own.
It doesn't matter how many times you say that, the Bible disagrees.
Therefore when the writer of Hebrews says "all" he is obviously referring to all who belong to God, whom God Himself has called by their names, and loved before they loved Him.
Forcing your interpretation on clear words (everyone doesn't mean everyone, right???), does not make your interpretation correct.
You said:
"Reformed theology is a horrifying model which brings despair to many and quite a bit of very evident pride and snottiness to others. The attitude of many of the Calvinists here (those who believe in Reformed theology) is something I have cringed to watch over all the years I have been on Baptist Board. I simply do not find the character of Christ in much of what is written here by Calvinists, and it is THAT which should be seen in anyone who is His true follower.".
I am not a Reformed Theologist but have friends who are, on both sides of the fence as well. And what you said, like what the thread starter said in his second or third post on this thread, cuts both ways.
Here you are calling an entire theology horrifying and causing despair, prideful and snotty.
What's the difference between that and someone saying a certain race of people causes crime rates to rise and property values to drop ?
There's an enormous difference. People choose what to believe. We cannot choose what our physical features will be. By the way, there is only one race of people. The human race.
I am remarking on the words and behavior I have seen out of a number of people who adhere to the Reformation theology. I do not see Christ's character in many of them.
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Amy, there is a difference between atonement for sins and salvation. All sins are atoned for. Hebrews tells us Jesus tasted death for EVERYONE. Therefore the way has been paved for EVERYONE to come to salvation. But the gate is narrow, remember? Not many find it. To find something implies you have been looking. Call it a work if you like, but that is what the Bible says. Salvation is the result of our response to what God has offered. We have the freedom to say yea or nay, to want the truth or to suppress it and prefer evil and the lie.
Any person who refuses Jesus dies in their sins. The sins have been paid for, and it is a payment the Father has accepted. But forgiveness is another matter altogether. Suppose someone murdered your mother. The law sends your mother to trial and the verdict is read and punishment meted out. But forgiveness is not at all the same, is it? That sin has been atoned for, possibly by the murderer's death. But forgiveness is a heart matter. In the case of sin it is between the sinner and God. It involves recognition that sin is sin, repentance, and then God's graceful forgiveness -- which was made possible by Christ's sacrifice on the cross and would not have been possible any other way, for God's justice had to be satisfied before forgiveness could be offered. Nevertheless, the two are entirely different.
To die in your sins means forgiveness had not been granted. The legal qualifications have been met, but not the personal ones. And in the long run, a relationship with God is a highly personal affair.
And again, regarding your last post, has the Gospel been preached to everyone? Paul says it has.
"Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
'Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.'"
Romans 10:17-18
In this passage Paul is quoting Psalm 19, which is referring to the testimony in the heavens themselves. You may be interested in this link:
http://www.ldolphin.org/zodiac/index.html
Keep in mind that the glory of God is NOT pretty little twinkling stars...
), however, The promise of Christ's substitutionary death was known from the beginning. (Gen 3:15) In this way, God offered a perfect sacrifice sufficient to cover the sins of the world. That it would in effect only cover the sins of those who would believe, doesn't mean it would have been sufficient for everyone if everyone had believed.