Who did Christ die for?

[npetreley]

Once again Lou , you show how little you understand Calvinism . It is much broader in scope than just the 5 points . It is so tedious to have to explain this time and time again .

Thanks. You saved me the trouble.

 

[BrotherJames]

I guess Jesus was lying when he said you must come unto him like a child in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. Or the kids back then were very smart.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I guess Jesus was lying when he said you must come unto him like a child in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. Or the kids back then were very smart.

I suppose Paul was lying under the guidance of the Holy Spirit when he told Timothy to study to show yourselves approved, to not be ashamed, to be a workman, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I guess Jesus was lying when he said you must come unto him like a child in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. Or the kids back then were very smart.

Chapter and verse, please ?

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Actually, Isaiah, I think the question has been answered quite well. You just don't like the answer.

You mean this answer of yours from page 5?

Let me take a swing at this.

Christ died so that all mankind who believed in Him might be saved.

All mankind was already condemned and there was nothing any of them/us could do about it. (see Jn 3:17)

So, those who died before Christ were saved according to their faith/belief that was looking forward to the time of the Messiah.

So yes, Christ died for all mankind, even those who died in the OT. All mankind, however, will not accept His sacrifice and will therefore die in their sins according to their own unbelief in which they were already condemned.

No where in this response do I see you stating why Christ had to die for people already in hell.

Here's another of your responses from page 7 to the same question.

First off, mankind is destined for hell because of unbelief. There was no one in hell before Christ came that was a believer. Those in hell had already chosen not to believe.

Again, where is the reason or purpose for Christ dying for people who in your own words, "had already chosen not to believe"?
Why did He have to die for them then? Their destiny was chosen and unchangeable.
What could His death do for them?

Please don't say that I "just don't like the answers".
That's a completely baseless comment.

 

[BrotherJames]

Matthew 18:3 (King James Version)
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[skypair]

I didn't have any idea what TULIP meant until I came to BB. I was already convinced of election, etc., though. I wouldn't say I'm a true Calvinist, anyway, but I'm comfortable being called that, since it's an easy shorthand.

Yeah, this I fear is true for many Calvinists. Calvinism is "easy shorthand" for easy ecclesiology, hold the eschatology, pls.

I was reading a quote Stephen Lam last night saying that in the Far East, one of the forbidden things to preach in the Chinese church is the second coming of Christ. That the "dragon" government (Satan) has blinded their eyes to it.

Then he made the comment that here, where we could study it, most churches don't try Too hard to understand. Like those mockers in 2Pet, they'd rather say "Where is the sign of His coming; for since our fathers died, all things continue as the have."

Now I realize many of you grew up reading comic books and doing papers from "Cliff's Notes," but let's get serious when it comes to scripture, shall we. Study of scripture is what YOU glean out of the Bible, not someone else's "Cliff Notes."

skypair

 

[skypair]

I agree that individual beliefs within each can both be wrong...by how can calvinist vs. non calvinist both be wrong, though? They are two absolutes on each side of the spectrum. If both are wrong, nothing is right.

I think there are a couple of ways that we can both fail..

1) We can't come to a common understanding of what "election" means.

2) We can't agree that faith is given by God but REPENTANT BELIEF is what we must have before God will give us faith and regenerate us.

3) Election and individual volition are both scriptural. We fail to come to a common understanding of them.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Christ died for people who were already condemned to hell due to their sin and unbelief?
What purpose did His death serve those who were already condemned to hell?

I asked this way back at the beginning and have continued to ask it since.

What is the non-Calvinist consensus?

Christ died for ALL sin of ALL people (OT saints included) so that ALL would one day be resurrected to stand before Him (Bema, MK, GWT).

Christ did not die for UNBELIEF -- a sin of ommission which ALL know they need to do, Rom 1:19-20. It is possible to omit or commit many things in ignorance but this one is "inexcuseable!"

Consensus opinion? I would hope so.

skypair

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Christ died for ALL sin of ALL people (OT saints included) so that ALL would one day be resurrected to stand before Him (Bema, MK, GWT).

Christ did not die for UNBELIEF -- a sin of ommission which ALL know they need to do, Rom 1:19-20. It is possible to omit or commit many things in ignorance but this one is "inexcuseable!"

Consensus opinion? I would hope so.

skypair

So how have you answered the question of why Jesus died for people who were already in hell?
How have you answered what His death did for them?

 

[menageriekeeper]

Again, where is the reason or purpose for Christ dying for people who in your own words, "had already chosen not to believe"?
Why did He have to die for them then? Their destiny was chosen and unchangeable.
What could His death do for them?

Why do believe Christ's death had to anything for them?

I see this as more about God showing us (as in those who came after the NT scriptures) His justice. A just God means all when He says all. He doesn't play mind games.

 

[skypair]

So how have you answered the question of why Jesus died for people who were already in hell?
How have you answered what His death did for them?

Oh, sorry. Thought I did.

At the GWT, they too will receive sinless bodies. They'll be raised on account of Christ's payment for their sins of commission, too.

And they will be judged like ALL out of the "book of works" -- have their "day in court," so to speak, before Christ, the Judge. I see the "book of works" somewhat ameliorating eternal spiritual suffering if the works were good. But then the "book of life" is opened and only those who had received Christ would be found written there. These will not be found and will experience the 2nd physical death in a real "lake of fire" and exist eternally is a spiritual state of suffering in darkness and alone.

skypair

 

[Amy.G]

Oh, sorry. Thought I did.

At the GWT, they too will receive sinless bodies. They'll be raised on account of Christ's payment for their sins of commission, too.

And they will be judged like ALL out of the "book of works" -- have their "day in court," so to speak, before Christ, the Judge. I see the "book of works" somewhat ameliorating eternal spiritual suffering if the works were good. But then the "book of life" is opened and only those who had received Christ would be found written there. These will not be found and will experience the 2nd physical death in a real "lake of fire" and exist eternally is a spiritual state of suffering in darkness and alone.

skypair

I think you answered the what instead of the why.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Oh, sorry. Thought I did.

At the GWT, they too will receive sinless bodies. They'll be raised on account of Christ's payment for their sins of commission, too.

And they will be judged like ALL out of the "book of works" -- have their "day in court," so to speak, before Christ, the Judge. I see the "book of works" somewhat ameliorating eternal spiritual suffering if the works were good. But then the "book of life" is opened and only those who had received Christ would be found written there. These will not be found and will experience the 2nd physical death in a real "lake of fire" and exist eternally is a spiritual state of suffering in darkness and alone.

skypair

Well since your eschatological beliefs are worlds away from mine, your explanations will not make any sense with my views.
Thanks for the reply though.

Actually some of your bolded statements might make interesting fodder for a new thread.

 

[Lou Martuneac]

Not a Difficult Question

Once again Lou , you show how little you understand Calvinism . It is much broader in scope than just the 5 points . It is so tedious to have to explain this time and time again ....Thanks. You saved me the trouble.

Rippon/npetreley:

The 5 points of Calvinism are the foundation of Reformed theology. Various other issues flow from them, such as: the extra-biblical teaching that regeneration must precede faith; double-predestination, hyper-Calvinism; and the works based interpretation of the Gospel known as: Lordship Salvation.

It is a simple, unambiguous question. Which of the five points of Calvinism do you reject?

Total Inability; Unconditional Election; Limited Atonement; Irresistible Grace; Perseverance of the Saints​

Can we start with Calvinism's Limited Atonement? This point very closely identifies with the question of this thread.

Do you believe and agree with Calvinism's Limited Atonement?

I trust that you are not going to dodge this question.


LM

 

[Jarthur001]

Rippon/npetreley:

The 5 points of Calvinism are the foundation of Reformed theology. Various other issues flow from them, such as: the extra-biblical teaching that regeneration must precede faith; double-predestination, hyper-Calvinism; and the works based interpretation of the Gospel known as: Lordship Salvation.

It is a simple, unambiguous question. Which of the five points of Calvinism do you reject?

Total Inability; Unconditional Election; Limited Atonement; Irresistible Grace; Perseverance of the Saints​

Can we start with Calvinism's Limited Atonement? This point very closely identifies with the question of this thread.

Do you believe and agree with Calvinism's Limited Atonement?

I trust that you are not going to dodge this question.


LM

Hello Lou...

Please do not dodge this.

If it be true that God loves every member of the human family, then why did our Lord tell His disciples

"He that hath My commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father ... If a man love Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him." (John 14:21,23)?

Why say "he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father"? If the Father loves everybody?

 

[Jarthur001]

One more Lou,

Proverbs 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

What about those that do not love God?

Or is this just vain words?

 

[Jarthur001]

Sorry....but I must post this.

Psalm 5

4For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Now notice this if you will.

This verse kinda shots wholes in all the "loves the sinner, but hates the sin"...does it not?

It is the WORKERS not the WORK that is hated. The work would never happen if the worker had not worked.

 

[Jarthur001]

OOps...how about the NT???

This is to show that the God of the OT is the same in the NT. I have heard some say other wise.

John 3:36
36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

What does the words "wrath of God" mean to you?

On the other hand we have....

4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.

In this case "love never fails" means real love will never stop.

 

[Jarthur001]

One more and I will really stop this time.

Heb 12..

"For whom the

Lord loveth He chasteneth

, and scourgeth every son whom He receiveth."

So what about those he gives up?

Roms 1
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,...........