Who has more education?

[blackbird]

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."--2Corinthians 5:10

The word, "judgment seat" is implication of the Bema seat

"Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men"--2Corinthians 5:11

The good doctor knows what to do when your dog is "hack--hackin'" away with Heartworms, too!!!

Your friend,
Blackbird

 

[Craigbythesea]

A very dependable source for the correct answer to such questions is the commentaries in the International Critical Commentary series. The writing of the volumes in this series of commentaries began in the late 1800’s and new volumes are continuing to be written as qualified scholars are found who have the time to devote to such a task. The problem for the pastor with less than a highly academic seminary education is that these commentaries are written for pastors and other students of the Bible who are fluent in English, Hebrew, Greek, Latin, German, and French. Pastors who can not read English, Hebrew, Greek, and Latin will find these commentaries to be virtually useless because all four of these languages are routinely used, and when German and French works are quoted, they are not translated.

Most unfortunately, there are many pastors today who don’t even know what the words “Critical” and “Exegetical” mean in the manner that they are used in the title of this series of commentaries!

 

[Craigbythesea]

Blackbird wrote,

The word, "judgment seat" is implication of the Bema seat

Whoops! You were NOT serious, were you?

 

[blackbird]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
A very dependable source for the correct answer to such questions is the commentaries in the International Critical Commentary series. The writing of the volumes in this series of commentaries began in the late 1800’s and new volumes are continuing to be written as qualified scholars are found who have the time to devote to such a task. The problem for the pastor with less than a highly academic seminary education is that these commentaries are written for pastors and other students of the Bible who are fluent in English, Hebrew, Greek, Latin, German, and French. Pastors who can not read English, Hebrew, Greek, and Latin will find these commentaries to be virtually useless because all four of these languages are routinely used, and when German and French works are quoted, they are not translated.

Most unfortunately, there are many pastors today who don’t even know what the words “Critical” and “Exegetical” mean in the manner that they are used in the title of this series of commentaries!

Critical exegesis??? You'll shake in your boots at the bema seat of the Lord Jesus Christ---He'll reference your name and you will obey His call on your life---you'll "toe the line" before the rostrum---and one glimpse of His holiness will leave you as speachless as ole Zacharias at the Altar of Insense!!! Who can stand before the throne of God and behold His holiness??? Your lips will quiver like ole Isaiah---when he beheld the throne and the holiness of the Only true Holy One of Israel!!!

 

[blackbird]

I can dip a dog, too!! And if you blindfold him(the dog) and put a clothes pin over his nostrils---he won't be able to tell you who dipped him---the preacher---or the vet!!!!

 

[rlvaughn]

I wonder how the veterinarian would answer the young Bible college student's question, "Just exactly what does the word 'bema' mean?"

To me it seems your question is off-base from the start.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Blackbird wrote,

Critical exegesis???

No, of course not!

The words “Critical” and “Exegetical” as used in the title of this series of commentaries, and indeed as used of scholarly commentaries in general, refer to the two distinct parts of these commentaries. The textual criticism part, that is, the part establishing the most likely original text; and the exegetical part, that is, the part establishing the most likely original MEANING of the text once it has been established as correctly as possible.

 

[Trotter]

originally posted by bapmom:
BUT I DO have a problem with those who CONTINUALLY bring up questions like this, implying that the pastors of our country are ignorant and backwards and that we ought only have those men in the pulpit who have massive degrees behind their names.

The "ignorant and backwards" portion is part of the reason America is going to hell in a handbasket.

Without a solid foundation of biblical exegesis, coupled with the depth and understanding gained through 'iron sharpening iron', we end up with what we have today- ignorance teaching ignorance. I have seen, and heard, plenty of it to know it.

A pastor doesn't have to have "massive degrees", but he should have SOME theological schooling, even if it is distance learning. And the learning needs to be GOOD, SOLID learning. In-depth exegesis, language studies, grammars (Greek, Hebrew, and English), basic counseling skills. A man of God needs to be prepared. That's not saying that a calling is not viable... but a soldier doesn't charge into battle without his weapon and equipment.

It takes more than bible-thumping and quoting verses from memory. Unless he knows how to handle those verses, to open them and expound what THE VERSES say, instead of what he wants them to say, he's just adding to the ignorance of those sitting before him.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by rlvaughn:
I wonder how the veterinarian would answer the young Bible college student's question, "Just exactly what does the word 'bema' mean?"

To me it seems your question is off-base from the start.

I expect my veterinarian to know what the superior vena cava is in my cat; and I expect my pastor to know what the βημα is in the New Testament—and Blackbird is 180º off.

 

[rlvaughn]

And then it certainly doesn't matter which one has MORE education, as you asked in the OP.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
Let’s suppose just for a moment that you are the pastor of a Baptist church and a young Bible college student attending your church is studying the "Bema seat judgment of Christ" at the Bible college. Let’s further suppose that he asks you, his pastor, “Just exactly what does the word “bema” mean?” Do you know the answer? Does your pastor know the answer? Would you know the answer if you actually were that pastor?

A very common approach to Bible study among pastors who are seriously lacking in their education is to “let the Bible interpret the Bible.”

That is a very real situation. I have had a few people in the churches I pastored who have degrees from Bible schools and seminary. Before I went to seminary I had questions and found the majority I pastors I asked could not answer my questions. As time went by I had more questions until I went to seminary and took one of the best professors inthe SBC for Greek. That is when I got my questions answered.

What I have found is that few pastors really know how to properly use a concordance. Most of them tell people just to look up the word. The problem is that if you lok up ay the word salvation you get to see how it is used in the past, present, and future tenses. If you try and interpret the verses in 1 Peter you will have a lot of trouble using just a bunch of usages of salvation. So what needs to be done is to see how Peter uses the word salvation.

When I was in seminary my Greek professor had us do a word study tracing it back from the OT through the intertestamental period and past the NT. If one does a study on baptism he will find it is not just used in the NT. Later in Greek studies we used outside extrabiblical sources to see how a word was used in society. It is amazing what you learn on the trip down that road.

What I have found as I searched out words and literature is that it is amazing what I have found how many I have heard preach over the years who have not done their homework. I have met some who have but will not preach what they have found becase they are afraid they will stir the pot. So the people must settle for ignorance.

It is quite hard for someone who searches for the truth to settle for hearing both sides of an issue and then leaving it at that. The truth does not have two sides. There is only truth.

 

[blackbird]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by rlvaughn:
I wonder how the veterinarian would answer the young Bible college student's question, "Just exactly what does the word 'bema' mean?"

To me it seems your question is off-base from the start.

I expect my veterinarian to know what the superior vena cava is in my cat; and I expect my pastor to know what the βημα is in the New Testament—and Blackbird is 180º off.

</font>[/QUOTE]I am

ing my head off, Craig!!! And since you "believe" that I am 180 degrees "off"---why not show us what 180 degrees "on" is!! Come on, Craig---its cloudy---fuzzy---hazy---blurry---from my disadvantaged point to see clearly---please show me and your readers where the Beme Seat of the Lord Jesus Christ is!!!

The giving of Rabies shots is reserved for the DVM!!! I can't help you there!!!!

Your buddy,
Blackbird

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by rlvaughn:
And then it certainly doesn't matter which one has MORE education, as you asked in the OP.

If they both have an outstanding education and they both subscribe to and read the leading professional journals in their respective fields, no, it really doesn’t matter. However, my veterinarian cares for my cat, and my pastor cares for my soul. I can live without my cat, but I can NOT live without my soul. And my pastor not only cares for my soul, he cares for the souls of my wife, my children, and my grandson. He also cares for the souls of all of my friends in my church. If he does not even have enough education to be able to read Hebrew and Greek, he does not have enough education to use the exegetical tools that educated pastors use on a daily basis. If a veterinarian were to lack the absolutely essential knowledge to use the tools and equipment of his profession, he would be absolutely incompetent. If it is discovered that a pastor lacks the absolutely essential knowledge to use the tools and equipment of his profession, he is absolutely incompetent. In a very severe emergency, I may trust my cat to the care of the local dog catcher, but I would get my cat to a qualified veterinarian as soon as possible. We have an abundance of laws to protect our cats from uneducated veterinarians, be we have no laws at all to protect our souls and the souls of our loved ones from uneducated pastors. Churches, therefore, have the responsibility to know whether or not their pastor has the academic qualification to do his job. And if they learn that he does not, they have the responsibility to secure a pastor who does.

This is NOT to deny that pastors must have additional, absolutely essential qualifications. It is only to affirm that academic qualifications are a must.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Blackbird wrote,

please show me and your readers where the Beme Seat of the Lord Jesus Christ is!!!

I GIVE UP!!! YOU HAVE MISUNDERSTOOD EVERYTHING THAT I HAVE WRITTEN!!!

 

[rlvaughn]

Perhaps you do not get the point? The question of whether one's pastor or veterinarian has more education is meaningless - unless you merely intend to start an argument. Even in both your posts appearing to disagree with me, you admit that it is not whether one has more education than the other - but that each must have the proper understanding in his own field.

 

[Bro Tony]

I am really surprized that the church ever went anywhere. I mean all those pastors in the first couple of centuries of the church did not get to to go to seminary. Preparation is important, but no preparation is a substitute for a man submitted to and filled with the Holy Spirit. It is ALWAYS by the power of the Spirit that lives are changed, not by the power of a man's intellect. This whole issue seems to be brought up from a very snobbish perspective. From the tone of self importance demonstrated it is unlikely that some of the poster's would submit to any pastoral leadership, for they are much smarter than any pastor. Maybe those who are completely impressed by degrees should find a profession where you can impress your boss with them. In the ministry our head is not impressed with your sheepskin, He is more impressed with your heart.

Anyone can learn, anyone can receive a degree. We need pastor's who walk in the power of God's Holy Spirit.

Bro Tony

 

[gb93433]

One has to have a license as an undertaker, One has to be licensed to practice veterinary medicine. One has to have a license to legally operate a motor vehicle.

But a pastor legally needs nothing.

Doesn't that seem strange that the secular society requires more of its professionals than the Baptist community?

When I was a general contractor in CA I was required to prove four years of prior experience and at least one year had to be at a journeyman level before I would be allowed to take the state test to get a license. To work as a licensed contractor I had to be bonded.

Then I read and hear of men who want the easy route out just so they can "preach." It doesn't amke sense to hire a licensed professional and then attend a chruch pastored by a person who you do not know if he has had any education or prior training. Then we allow him to teach us and our children. We expect more of secular society than we do in the Christian community. That should not be so.

Before I could get a license to build I had to have the sate verify my work experience. But when I talked with churches not one of them ever asked me if I had discipled anyone. A man with no education and no prior work experince can pastor a church? Even Jesus trained His disciples. But so often we leave men to flop around like a fish on a rock until it dies.

Which is more important? The training and education of the man who pastors the church you attend or the person who builds your home?

 

[DeeJay]

GB

One has to have a license as an undertaker, One has to be licensed to practice veterinary medicine. One has to have a license to legally operate a motor vehicle.

But a pastor legally needs nothing.

GB, are you sugesting that the goverment should leagely require a person to obtain a licence before becoming a pastor.

You would have to change this then;

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,..........

When you were a contractor you had to take classes to make sure you built things to the standards of the goverment before you were licenced. Do you trust your goverment enough to train you pastor? Do you want the goverment to ensure that he teaches things to the goverments standards before he can be licenced?

If the goverment does not like what the pastor is teaching will it with hold his licence? Maybe the pastor says intolorant things. Licence revoked, no more preaching.

Is this a good idea

 

[SAMPLEWOW]

So is this education that I'm trying to get is of no account? It's no good ?I'm busting my brain for nothing? I hope your wrong!

 

[gb93433]

DeeJay:

No I am not suggesting that the government get involved. What I am suggesting is that we require more of the churches and leaders.

Never once have I been asked to give any church the names of people I have discipled. That is the basic requirement of leadership. The basic requirement is that the person be tested. How can a person have been tested when he has not discipled anyone?

Years ago I had a church call me and the lady explined hopw the men were working so hard during the day that they neded a pastor to visit people. I told her I visited people but I expected the men to go with me from time to time. She insisted they didn't have time. To her amazement I told her I grew up a few miles from where she lived. While my family lived there we had a dairy farm and I was a student as well. I worked about seven hours each day and also went to school. Got good grades and went onto college. Then I told her that I expected the men to give a few hours each week to ministry. She insisted they didn't have time and they neeeded their church to grow. I told her that if they were not willing to help work then they didn't want me. I told her I work with people and not alone.

So many churches and pastors want some fast method of gettting nickels and noses instead of the hard work of discipleship.

Some of my friends for over 30 years go to a church that has never had a pastor. There are trained men who take leadership. The older disciple the younger. That church runs about 300 each Sunday. That church does not lack for good leadership. Many of them have been educated at some good theological schools.