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Who has more education?
- Thread starter Craigbythesea
- Start date
That reminds me of the book Power through Prayer by E.M. Bounds.
The apostles had it much better than any seminary ever thought of. They had the master who trained them and sent them out two by two. Know of any churches which regularly send them out trained and two by two with nothing. How many pastors are training twelve men each?
I have never seen a man who wanted to reach people for Christ that was not studying and getting better trained. Not one of should ever be afraid to ask for help. After all who of us know everything.
I think the main problem is attitude, heart and zeal. It is not how little we can get by with but how much we owe our master and his people.
gb,
there is nothing in my post that suggests otherwise. I said preparation is important. My point is that it is not the most important thing. And it surely is not so some christians can flaunt there degrees over others. The whole spirit of this thread suggest this, at least to me. We are all continually learning and preparing for sharing with others and helping them prepare for the work of the ministry. But, without the Holy Spirit it is man's work.
Bro Tony
there is nothing in my post that suggests otherwise. I said preparation is important. My point is that it is not the most important thing. And it surely is not so some christians can flaunt there degrees over others. The whole spirit of this thread suggest this, at least to me. We are all continually learning and preparing for sharing with others and helping them prepare for the work of the ministry. But, without the Holy Spirit it is man's work.
Bro Tony
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
Some years ago a friend of mine was called by God to become a chaplain in the United States Navy. He inquired about the educational requirements and learned that he had to complete a minimum of seven years of formal education at accredited institutions.
U.S. Navy chaplains don’t pastor most folks for more than a few years—if even that. But civilian pastors very often pastor folks for very many years, having a profound influence upon them and their family. Several of the mainline denominations also require a minimum of seven years of formal education as one of the qualifications for ordination. And of, of course, very many Baptist churches now require an absolute minimum of an earned masters of divinity degree from a very good seminary or university, and more and more Baptist churches are requiring an earned doctorate from a very good seminary or university. But some other Baptist churches are ordaining and employing men without any formal education at all.
U.S. Navy chaplains don’t pastor most folks for more than a few years—if even that. But civilian pastors very often pastor folks for very many years, having a profound influence upon them and their family. Several of the mainline denominations also require a minimum of seven years of formal education as one of the qualifications for ordination. And of, of course, very many Baptist churches now require an absolute minimum of an earned masters of divinity degree from a very good seminary or university, and more and more Baptist churches are requiring an earned doctorate from a very good seminary or university. But some other Baptist churches are ordaining and employing men without any formal education at all.
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
Very recently I was visiting a Baptist church where some friends of mine are members. The pastor preached on Luke 8:40-56 in the KJV,
Luk 8:40 And it came to pass, that, when Jesus was returned, the people gladly received him: for they were all waiting for him.
Luk 8:41 And, behold, there came a man named Jairus, and he was a ruler of the synagogue: and he fell down at Jesus' feet, and besought him that he would come into his house:
Luk 8:42 For he had one only daughter, about twelve years of age, and she lay a dying. But as he went the people thronged him.
Luk 8:43 And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any,
Luk 8:44 Came behind him, and touched the border of his garment: and immediately her issue of blood stanched.
Luk 8:45 And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
Luk 8:46 And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.
Luk 8:47 And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him before all the people for what cause she had touched him, and how she was healed immediately.
Luk 8:48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.
Luk 8:49 While he yet spake, there cometh one from the ruler of the synagogue's house, saying to him, Thy daughter is dead; trouble not the Master.
Luk 8:50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.
Luk 8:51 And when he came into the house, he suffered no man to go in, save Peter, and James, and John, and the father and the mother of the maiden.
Luk 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luk 8:53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
Luk 8:54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
Luk 8:55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.
Luk 8:56 And her parents were astonished: but he charged them that they should tell no man what was done.
Regarding the words “Maid, arise” in v. 54, he said, “I am told that a better translation of Maid would be ‘Little Lamb.’ That was an absolute lie! I know for a fact that it was an absolute lie because I know this pastor personally and I know his study habits and the materials that he uses. The night before the sermon, I read J. Vernon McGee's comments on these verses and saw that he wrote, “These words could be accurately translated, “Little Lamb, wake up!”
Not only did the pastor lie, but the information that he got by reading J. Vernon McGee rather than a Lucan scholar was incorrect information. The congregation, however, sat right through it and never knew that their pastor had lied to them on top of feeding them wrong information. From their point of view, their pastor is a fine, well educated man. In reality, however, their pastor is a liar and fraud who gouges his congregation of 50 senior citizens for $60,000 a year and who gives his congregation less than eight hours a WEEK. He has a full-time secretary whom he believes is covering for him, but in reality she is documenting his incompetence and his laziness. In the mean time, the congregation believes that they have a fine, well educated man in their pulpit.
Let’s not wait for our Government to step in and put a halt to the ignorance in the pulpits in America. Let’s be responsible Baptists and demand higher standards for our pastors.
Luk 8:40 And it came to pass, that, when Jesus was returned, the people gladly received him: for they were all waiting for him.
Luk 8:41 And, behold, there came a man named Jairus, and he was a ruler of the synagogue: and he fell down at Jesus' feet, and besought him that he would come into his house:
Luk 8:42 For he had one only daughter, about twelve years of age, and she lay a dying. But as he went the people thronged him.
Luk 8:43 And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any,
Luk 8:44 Came behind him, and touched the border of his garment: and immediately her issue of blood stanched.
Luk 8:45 And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
Luk 8:46 And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.
Luk 8:47 And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him before all the people for what cause she had touched him, and how she was healed immediately.
Luk 8:48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.
Luk 8:49 While he yet spake, there cometh one from the ruler of the synagogue's house, saying to him, Thy daughter is dead; trouble not the Master.
Luk 8:50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.
Luk 8:51 And when he came into the house, he suffered no man to go in, save Peter, and James, and John, and the father and the mother of the maiden.
Luk 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luk 8:53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
Luk 8:54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
Luk 8:55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.
Luk 8:56 And her parents were astonished: but he charged them that they should tell no man what was done.
Regarding the words “Maid, arise” in v. 54, he said, “I am told that a better translation of Maid would be ‘Little Lamb.’ That was an absolute lie! I know for a fact that it was an absolute lie because I know this pastor personally and I know his study habits and the materials that he uses. The night before the sermon, I read J. Vernon McGee's comments on these verses and saw that he wrote, “These words could be accurately translated, “Little Lamb, wake up!”
Not only did the pastor lie, but the information that he got by reading J. Vernon McGee rather than a Lucan scholar was incorrect information. The congregation, however, sat right through it and never knew that their pastor had lied to them on top of feeding them wrong information. From their point of view, their pastor is a fine, well educated man. In reality, however, their pastor is a liar and fraud who gouges his congregation of 50 senior citizens for $60,000 a year and who gives his congregation less than eight hours a WEEK. He has a full-time secretary whom he believes is covering for him, but in reality she is documenting his incompetence and his laziness. In the mean time, the congregation believes that they have a fine, well educated man in their pulpit.
Let’s not wait for our Government to step in and put a halt to the ignorance in the pulpits in America. Let’s be responsible Baptists and demand higher standards for our pastors.
Jesus used all kinds of people:
Peter, a fisherman; Matthew, a tax collector; Simon, a zealot;
Paul and Isaiah were two very educated and refined individuals.
Amos was a shepherd and a keeper of fig trees.
But one of the most famed and used figures that God used in the Bible was one known as Balaam's ass. You can draw your conclusions from there.
DHK
Peter, a fisherman; Matthew, a tax collector; Simon, a zealot;
Paul and Isaiah were two very educated and refined individuals.
Amos was a shepherd and a keeper of fig trees.
But one of the most famed and used figures that God used in the Bible was one known as Balaam's ass. You can draw your conclusions from there.
DHK
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
There is no excuse for willful ignorance or lying.
However:
"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to naught things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."
- 1 Corinthians 1v26-31
However:
"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to naught things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."
- 1 Corinthians 1v26-31
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
Bro Tony wrote,
Without the required education, a pastor can NOT do his job regardless of all of his other qualifications. Therefore, the “other qualifications” argument is irrelevant. We would not trust our animals to a “veterinarian” who had skipped out on going to school, but many Baptists trust the souls of their children to pastors who didn’t care enough about them to get an education. Perhaps your pets are more important to you than the souls of your children. If they are, I suggest that your values are VERY unbiblical!
T
TexasSky
Guest
The Pastors of the first century didn't get anywhere? You mean other than changing the world, other than being the bricks that were laid upon the foundation of Christ which has spread the church all over the world?
T
TexasSky
Guest
Perhaps the focus of this thread should be more about whether Pastors need paperwork declaring them educated, than about whether they need education or not.
Education can come in many forms, and many a great man has studied, and is extremely educated, but does not have a degree plan filed or a diploma hanging on the wall to state to the world, "I am educated."
God wants us all to be the best that we can be. Seminaries (hopefully) offer a way for men of God to achieve another level of education about God's word, about their church doctorines so they can better separate doctorine from the word, about methods to reach the world.
There may be other ways to obtain that kind of education, but seminary is tried and tested, and has developed over centuries by men who have walked that walk.
Education can come in many forms, and many a great man has studied, and is extremely educated, but does not have a degree plan filed or a diploma hanging on the wall to state to the world, "I am educated."
God wants us all to be the best that we can be. Seminaries (hopefully) offer a way for men of God to achieve another level of education about God's word, about their church doctorines so they can better separate doctorine from the word, about methods to reach the world.
There may be other ways to obtain that kind of education, but seminary is tried and tested, and has developed over centuries by men who have walked that walk.
**Personal insult removed***I have not said and do not say that preparation and education are non essentials. But I would rather have a person who has spent more hours with God and who is filled with the Holy Spirit. The men of the "Jesus Seminar" are very well educated but they are clearly dead spiritually and dead wrong when it comes to the Scripture. The Pharisees and Scribes of the first century were well educated men, but Jesus said they were white-washed tombs, filled with dead men's bones. They did not understand the meaning of the Scripture.
Again, one must learn to read and study. One must be prepared. But it is the Holy Spirit that gives understanding of the deep things of God. And there is no substitute for that. You can remain in your ivory tower and be puffed up with you intellect, I would prefer to trust my family to a man who is prepared yes, but who is most importantly lead by the Spirit of God.
I might suggest the same to you if your point is that the most important thing is degrees offered from institutions for the man of God.
Bro Tony
[ October 25, 2005, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: blackbird ]
What an insulting and unnecessary implication you make here. There is nothing in any of my post that would lead anyone with common sense to make this statement. Maybe it is time you come down out of your elitist ivory tower and stop making ridiculous comments about others.
I again repeat the whole spirit of this thread, while it has brought out some good points, comes from the perspective of a snob. This is clear not only in this thread, but many others started by the originator of this thread.
There is nothing more important than the power of the Holy Spirit. Preparation is good, education is wonderful. Both are a part of my life. The church needs to see the power of God, not be impressed by the intellect of men.
Bro Tony
Spurgeon--no college education, but started a college himself; was called the "prince of preachers."
D.L. Moody--grade 5 education.
William Carey--a simply shoe cobbler. When at a dinner held in honor of himself, one dignitary said to one sitting nearby: "So this is your shoe maker." Carey, barely within hearing distance, turned and remarked: "Oh no sir, I was not that proficient; I was merely a cobbler."
--And yet he went to India and translated the Bible into some 26 different languages. He is the father of the modern day missionary movement.
Education can come in many forms. It doesn't have to come from a "semetary."
DHK
D.L. Moody--grade 5 education.
William Carey--a simply shoe cobbler. When at a dinner held in honor of himself, one dignitary said to one sitting nearby: "So this is your shoe maker." Carey, barely within hearing distance, turned and remarked: "Oh no sir, I was not that proficient; I was merely a cobbler."
--And yet he went to India and translated the Bible into some 26 different languages. He is the father of the modern day missionary movement.
Education can come in many forms. It doesn't have to come from a "semetary."
DHK
Moderator warning: I believe that we "educated" men can carry on a decent conversation without further insult. Please---show respect while posting. Further insults will be noted for moderator/administrator review and edited and posters will face possible suspension.
Thank you!
Bro. David
Thank you!
Bro. David
What are you suggesting. Pardon me, but it sounds absurd. Are you suggesting that each man, called of God, must meet a minimal government standard or else he cannot be ordained as a pastor. That sounds like Communism. It sounds very familiar to what goes on under the repressive regime of China today. Only those that are govrnment approved ministers have the freedom to be a "minister." Of course their freedom to preach the true gospel is thwarted by the governemt. The real Christians are underground, many of which have already been in prison and many still are in prison for their faith. "A government-regulated ministry? Are you really serious?Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
Let’s not wait for our Government to step in and put a halt to the ignorance in the pulpits in America. Let’s be responsible Baptists and demand higher standards for our pastors.
In addition to the examples of those with little or no education, that I posted above; that God used in a mighty way, my thoughts also turn to individuals such as Billy Sunday, also used of God, as a great preacher of the Gospel, and one who brought revival in his time. What was his background? Well, he was a professional baseball player, but you don't need much education to know how to throw a ball across a plate, just a little skill. And then, before he was saved, he became a retired drunk. What a great education! But God used him anyway. I don't look down on education. I have a fair share of it myself. But there are many good preachers that don't have the educational standards that you would like to be able to measure them by.
"And why dost thou judge thy brother, for we shall all give account before God."
DHK
I am glad that DHK brought up the first paragraph particularly. It sounded to me also that the suggestion was made that the government be involved in determining who was qualified to preach. The qualifications of a pastor are first that the are "God called". Then they need to follow the leadership of God as to how He would have them prepare. Not all need doctorates, not all need spend their time in academic pursuits. But all need to spend their time with God.
Nothing worse could happen then for the government to get involved in the work of the church, the result would be death. Learn from history, look at the state churches in Europe. Beautiful in design, all the pomp and government approved qualifications for clergy, but dead, dead, dead!
Bro Tony
Nothing worse could happen then for the government to get involved in the work of the church, the result would be death. Learn from history, look at the state churches in Europe. Beautiful in design, all the pomp and government approved qualifications for clergy, but dead, dead, dead!
Bro Tony
What "required" education? Who is this that is doing the requiring? God? There is no one to one correspondence between competence and formal education. You sound like a Greek requiring "wisdom".
1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Faithfulness is a requirement, not a PhD,
1Co 4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
Rightly dividing the word of truth is a requirement but to the extent that it is approved by God not by man.
2 Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Studying, learning, and seeking a deeper knowledge of the truth are all requirements for the man of God. It is the idea that it MUST be "formal" which is repugnant. It must be RIGHT. Formal without right is useless. Formal with right is useful. Informal with right is useful. Informal without right is useless. Your contention that informal with right is useless is incorrect.
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
I agree with you in that there are some pastors who, although they never attended a university or seminary, got a good education by teaching themselves how to read Hebrew and Greek and who studied Old and New Testament bibliography to learn who is who in Old and New Testament studies so that they could build a very fine personal library that equals or surpasses the personal libraries of many pastors who earned their doctorate from a prestigious university or seminary. Such individuals as these are more than worthy of their pastorates and I hold them in very high regard.
At the same time there are, in our Baptists pulpits today, very many grossly incompetent pastors who have always found more pleasure in watching sports on television than studying the Bible.
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
Bro Tony wrote,
Those people who are actually reading my posts rather than posting personal attacks know for a fact that that is NOT my point. I have already said it, but I will say it again—there are a number of absolutely essential qualifications for a pastor. The qualification in this thread is that of an education, whether it comes from Princeton Theological Seminary, the University of Chicago, or, as was the case with Spurgeon, countless hours of personal study under the guidance of pastors who did have the privilege of the Ivory Tower education.