I agree with you on this.
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Who has not failed?
- Thread starter steaver
- Start date
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. ~Rom 3:23-26
Let us walk worthily in Thanksgiving to this Grace which we have not merited.
David Michael Harris
Active Member
This is happening in Reformed circles. People are being taught intellectualism rather than a coming to faith. It's very dangerous obviously. Infact it is just as bad as the Roman Catholic method of going through the motions and all will be ok. Which is ironic, and fitting when you think about it.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by BobRyan
A better question would be -- "What sin does the Bible say you MUST continue to commit as a born-again Christian"?
1Cor 10 and Romans 6 make it clear that the answer is "none".
However Romans 8 DOES bring to view a group that MUST continue to sin --
Rom 8
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are [b]in the flesh cannot please God[/b].
It is a "better question" for discussion among the "saved" because it is asking what the saved are supposed to be doing.
if the intent is to engage the lost in what they should do - well then I agree mine is not "a better question".
Indeed that too is a great question given that Romans 8:5-8 declares that only the lost are doomed to sinning.
That is exactly the problem Paul admitted to having in Romans 7 before he applied the Romans 8 solution - which released him from slavery to sinning - as Romans 6 demands.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
James 4:17 "to the one that knows to do right - and does it not - to him it is sin"
John 16 the "Spirit (of truth) convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".
As Christ said also in John 16 "I have many more things to teach you but you cannot bear them now"
Are you claiming that you don't sin? Or can't? I believe it's impossible to "confess" each and every sin we commit DAILY. There is no way to remember them all. God's standard is PERFECTION! You ever have ANY day where you met that standard?
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Yes that is true.
I started knowing that person the day that I was saved. And nothing can separate me from his love, or that relationship. (Rom.8:38,39)
Not sure how that is "exactly the problem" I have. I do agree with you that Paul in Romans 7 is describing his condition before Jesus saved him. I have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit. I do not feel I am a slave to sin for I have been set free, but I do recognize the reality that I fail daily at keeping God's two greatest commandments. Oh I have many moments of exercising my love for God and my love for others but I am honest enough to admit that many times I fail to keep these two commandments.
Being a slave means you have no choice whom to obey. Jesus has freed us from the slavery of sin, this does not mean we are now unable to fail in obeying His commandments.
You yourself agree that a born of God Christian can sin. So I don't know why you cite Romans 7 in this discussion. You said, no scripture says we MUST sin and I agree. Yet we know that we Christians DO sin. So how does Romans 7 apply to us as Christians in that we still find ourselves guilty of breaking God's commandments?
:jesus:
Originally Posted by steaver
How about Christians who refuse to repent of breaking the Sabbath commandment? Or is the Sabbath commandment one of those commandments not in force for the believer in Christ?
Not following. Are you saying that one is not held accountable for merely knowing what the Law says, but one must also have had the Spirit convict them that "shall" or "shall not" really means "shall" or "shall not"?
Are you saying one could read "thou shall not kill" and the Spirit NOT convict them that this is a commandment that God holds them accountable to keep?
:jesus:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Many people read various parts of the Bible and then decide for whatever reason "that does not mean me".
The disciples did it when it came to loving their neighbor in Lev 19:18 vs loving the Samaritans.
But in the end - God addresses those issues with each one of us via His Holy Spirit - "convicting the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".
Catholics who persecuted protestants would often claim they felt "blessed by God" for doing so.
in John 16 Christ ALSO said that people would persecute the saints "thinking they do God a service". Saul did that - before becoming Paul.
in Christ,
Bob
The disciples did it when it came to loving their neighbor in Lev 19:18 vs loving the Samaritans.
But in the end - God addresses those issues with each one of us via His Holy Spirit - "convicting the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".
Catholics who persecuted protestants would often claim they felt "blessed by God" for doing so.
in John 16 Christ ALSO said that people would persecute the saints "thinking they do God a service". Saul did that - before becoming Paul.
in Christ,
Bob
I just want to be clear and not put any words in your mouth. You seem to not be giving a clear answer to my questions. I simply want to know your position, understand how you think.
I don't feel you really answered these questions and if you would it would clear things up quite a bit....
Are you saying that one is not held accountable for merely knowing what the Law says, but one must also have had the Spirit convict them that "shall" or "shall not" really means "shall" or "shall not"?
Example;
Are you saying one could read "thou shall not kill" and the Spirit NOT convict them that this is a commandment that God holds them accountable to keep?
:jesus:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
As the Catholics read the commandment against the worship of images and then suppose that because their images are not gods - but merely represent the one true God -- they are not in violation of the very commandment they are reading.
As the Catholics read the Isaiah 8:19-20 command against praying to the dead and against man-made tradition that is not judged "sola scriptura" - and yet suppose reasons to themselves as to why their own practice might not be a violation of that scripture.
I meantion Catholics only because it is often easier to see the problem clearly when "other people" are having the problem rather when you are having it.
James 4:17 "To him that knows to do right - and does it not - to him it is sin"
The Holy Spirit's job is to "convict the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment"
It is our job to go and share the good news of the Gospel as found in the Word of God -- teaching them ALL the Word of God. But it is not man that convicts man of sin -- it is the Holy Spirit.
I have shown you D.L Moody's sermon on the Sabbath commandment - right?
And I recently posted a link to an old 2008 World Net Daily news article researching that subject -
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1518461&postcount=65
Paul argues that as the chief of sinners he used to work for the goal of killing the saints. But in Phil 3 he declares that at that time he thought of himself as "blameless" before God.
in Christ,
Bob
As the Catholics read the Isaiah 8:19-20 command against praying to the dead and against man-made tradition that is not judged "sola scriptura" - and yet suppose reasons to themselves as to why their own practice might not be a violation of that scripture.
I meantion Catholics only because it is often easier to see the problem clearly when "other people" are having the problem rather when you are having it.
James 4:17 "To him that knows to do right - and does it not - to him it is sin"
The Holy Spirit's job is to "convict the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment"
It is our job to go and share the good news of the Gospel as found in the Word of God -- teaching them ALL the Word of God. But it is not man that convicts man of sin -- it is the Holy Spirit.
I have shown you D.L Moody's sermon on the Sabbath commandment - right?
And I recently posted a link to an old 2008 World Net Daily news article researching that subject -
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1518461&postcount=65
Paul argues that as the chief of sinners he used to work for the goal of killing the saints. But in Phil 3 he declares that at that time he thought of himself as "blameless" before God.
in Christ,
Bob
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
My previous post addressed that - but upon reflection...
I am amazed that you would ask that question.
You seem to be saying that it is not possible that someone could read one of the Ten Commadments and then come up with some attractive rationale as to why they did not have to be in obedience to what they were reading.
I find it hard to believe that you of all people cannot imagine how such a thing might happen.
in Christ,
Bob
Did Jesus rationalize.
Thou shalt not kill. One of the Ten Commandments.
Matthew 5:21-22 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
--Have you been angry with your brother, Bob.
Jesus called that anger, murder. It is a violation of "Thou shalt not kill."
Further defined by John:
1 John 3:15-16 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
To murder is not confined to the actual act. It begins in the heart.
Many people have murdered, but will not admit to it.
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
--And accordingly, if you have broken one law you are just as guilty as if you have broken every single one of them.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: What is so absurd is that such a survey proves absolutely nothing. Neither would the following surveys prove anything: A survey on whether or not anyone has not sinned, or if anyone did not sin for a day, month or year subsequent to salvation.
If there was a mountain no one had climbed before, does that make it a natural impossibility to climb? If no has ever landed on Mars, does it make it a natural impossibility for one to land there?
Here are two great verses for us to consider:
Heb 6:1 ¶ Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 ¶ Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 ¶ Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Totally misunderstanding my questions. I have asked nothing concerning "reasoning".
My questions are directly pointed towards the written commandments and the Holy Spirit conviction of said commandments.
Here are my questions, please read them carefully. Please don't give me any answers dealing with man's "reasonings".
Come on Bob, my questions are very pointed, they are about the Spirit in relation to the written word, nothing about man coming up with reasons not to keep a commandment. Which sounds like sin in itself to me.
:jesus:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Thus we have the Bible showing us that it is possible for people to be so confused as to "imagine" to themselves some kind of reasons why they are not to blame for breaking God's Commandments.
The question that was asked of me - is whether God would hold them guilty for breaking one of the Ten Commandments.
If the question is - "do people sin" - I have already noticed that they do.
If the question is "must the saints continually murder" - I have never said "They must".
in Christ,
Bob
Actually, it proves no one can keep the law every moment of everyday, even after receiving the Holy Spirit. See the count so far? 21 yes, 0 no.
Great scriptures though! :thumbsup: I love them!
:wavey:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
In Romans 8:5-9 Paul clearly identifies those who "cannot submit to the Law of God" - they are the lost.
I am always impressed at how well some people can focus on the condition of the lost and how they "do not subject themselves to the law of God - neither indeed CAN they"
But as for the saints - "their faith ESTABLISHES the Law of God" Rom 3:31 so that they can say as does John in 1John 5 "His Commandments are NOT burdensome" for under the New Covenant the "LAw of God is written on the heart" Heb 8 and under the New Covenant "We are taking EVERY THOUGHT captive to the obedience of Christ" 2Cor 10:4-5 for as Paul says in 1Cor 7:19 "but what matters is KEEPING the commanments of God"
I am always impressed at how well some people can focus on the condition of the lost and how they "do not subject themselves to the law of God - neither indeed CAN they"
But as for the saints - "their faith ESTABLISHES the Law of God" Rom 3:31 so that they can say as does John in 1John 5 "His Commandments are NOT burdensome" for under the New Covenant the "LAw of God is written on the heart" Heb 8 and under the New Covenant "We are taking EVERY THOUGHT captive to the obedience of Christ" 2Cor 10:4-5 for as Paul says in 1Cor 7:19 "but what matters is KEEPING the commanments of God"
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