Who has not failed?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

You know what is so amazing, is that those that so often speaking so highly of the necessity of God’s grace (not to say God’s grace is not a necessity for it is) in reality seem to practice using so little of it. It would appear to me that it is almost out of fear that if they did find it really effective in keeping one from sin, in doing so they would be seen by their peers as denying God’s grace is really needed, therefore not able to testify to the efficiency of grace in any case. It is if thought the only ones that are allowed to elevate God's grace are those that refuse to allow it to do its work,.....or so it might seem to appear to this listener. God forbid that grace might actually work in destroying the works of the devil in our lives.

Why does this verse come to mind??? Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Now we already know the answer some on this list would give to Paul's question. "Absolutely! Do you think God is a liar???? No one can live without continuing in sin!"

It is almost as if sin is the sole essential ingredient of the life chain.

 

[steaver]

You know what is so amazing, is that those that so often speaking so highly of the necessity of God’s grace (not to say God’s grace is not a necessity for it is) in reality seem to practice using so little of it. It would appear to me that it is almost out of fear that if they did find it really effective in keeping one from sin, in doing so they would be seen by their peers as denying God’s grace is really needed, therefore not able to testify to the efficiency of grace in any case. It is if thought the only ones that are allowed to elevate God's grace are those that refuse to allow it to do its work,.....or so it might seem to appear to this listener. God forbid that grace might actually work in destroying the works of the devil in our lives.

Why does this verse come to mind??? Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Who are the "those" you are speaking of?

While you are here HP,

Do you also agree with Bob that a born of God Christian can read a commandment of God, like thou shalt not murder, and NOT be convicted by the Holy Spirit that one should not murder?

And, if the Holy Spirit has NOT convicted you that you should not murder then you will not be held accountable if you should murder even if you had read in God's word that you should not murder?

:jesus:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Who are the "those" you are speaking of?

HP: May the chips fall wherever the Holy Spirit drops them.

Steaver; While you are here HP,

Do you also agree with Bob that a born of God Christian can read a commandment of God, like thou shalt not murder, and NOT be convicted by the Holy Spirit that one should not murder?

HP: Can you point me to BR’s personal remark so I can read it for myself?

Steaver: And, if the Holy Spirit has NOT convicted you that you should not murder then you will not be held accountable if you should murder even if you had read in God's word that you should not murder?

HP: “Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” Knowledge is essential for sin to be conceived.

Paul indeed knew the law before he became a Christian. He stated clearly that God had used him due to the fact he did it in ignorance. 1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

I do not believe God held Paul accountable for his actions until God revealed to him he was kicking against the pricks. Paul was indeed a rare bird and not the general rule. Who else could testify honestly???: “Ac 23:1 ¶ And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day.”

Paul life is a great example of the wisdom in allowing for the 'possibility of' some things in ones theology, even as rare as it might appear to be.:thumbs:

 

[steaver]

HP: May the chips fall wherever the Holy Spirit drops them.

I was just wondering because I haven't seen anyone here that would fit your discription, I thought maybe it was people you know in your church or something.

HP: Can you point me to BR’s personal remark so I can read it for myself?

Maybe I am putting words in his mouth. Let's wait and see when he answers the questions I have asked.

I do not believe God held Paul accountable for his actions until God revealed to him he was kicking against the pricks. Paul was indeed a rare bird and not the general rule.

These are very interesting comments.

So unless a man is convicted by the Holy Spirit that Jesus is Lord they cannot be held accountable for their unbelief. Paul had the knowledge of the gospel, heard it many, many times but did not believe until the Holy Spirit actually convicted Paul it was true and then Paul chose to believe. If the Holy Spirit had never convicted Paul then Paul would have been saved anyways for he had ignorance as his defense, which would make it God's fault for not convicting Paul and letting Paul continue in unbelief and killing Christians.

THen you said Paul was not the "general rule". Does this mean Paul was saved some other way than people generally are saved?

:jesus:

 

[BobRyan]

Do you also agree with Bob that a born of God Christian can read a commandment of God, like thou shalt not murder, and NOT be convicted by the Holy Spirit that one should not murder?

And, if the Holy Spirit has NOT convicted you that you should not murder then you will not be held accountable if you should murder even if you had read in God's word that you should not murder?

:jesus:

Christ said that "if you did not see then you would not be accountable"

Christ said that there would come a time when those who killed you would think that they were doing God a service. In John 16:2

Paul said in Phil 3 that BEFORE becoming a christian HE himself thought that according to the righteousness that is in the law - he actually thought he was blameless. Phil 3:6

Paul said in 1Tim 1:13 that he was in fact chief of sinners a violent aggressor - but that he "acted ignorantly in unbelief". In acts 26:10 he says that when the saints were being put to death - he voted for their death.

James 4:17 states clearly "to him who KNOWS to do right and does it not to him it is sin".

Paul did not go around as a mass murderer before being a Christian - he knew the law forbade such things. But he was confused enough about the truth - so that he thought persecuting the saints was a good thing - since he did not regard them as saints - but as heretics and blasphemers.

----

However the Holy Spirit guides people into all truth as we see in John 16 "convicting them of SIN righteousness and judgment".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Christ said that "if you did not see then you would not be accountable"

Christ said that there would come a time when those who killed you would think that they were doing God a service. In John 16:2

Paul said in Phil 3 that BEFORE becoming a christian HE himself thought that according to the righteousness that is in the law - he actually thought he was blameless. Phil 3:6

Paul said in 1Tim 1:13 that he was in fact chief of sinners a violent aggressor - but that he "acted ignorantly in unbelief". In acts 26:10 he says that when the saints were being put to death - he voted for their death.

James 4:17 states clearly "to him who KNOWS to do right and does it not to him it is sin".

Paul did not go around as a mass murderer before being a Christian - he knew the law forbade such things. But he was confused enough about the truth - so that he thought persecuting the saints was a good thing - since he did not regard them as saints - but as heretics and blasphemers.

----

However the Holy Spirit guides people into all truth as we see in John 16 "convicting them of SIN righteousness and judgment".

in Christ,

Bob

Bob, you are still confusing me with your comments. It's probably just me but if you just take my example and answer it yes or no then that will clear this up for me. Can you do this for me, call me slow but it is how I understand another's point of views. You want me to clearly understand you don't you? Then please, just answer my questions.

You say one is not held accountable and then you say the Holy Spirit guides people into all truth.

I asked if the Holy Spirit ever chooses NOT to convict a person who has read a commandment? No matter if the person is confused or trying to reason their way out of keeping it.

Here are my example questions so I may be absolutely clear what you believe. I do not want to misrepresent you. Honestly, I am not trying to be difficult here.

Are you saying that one is not held accountable for merely knowing what the Law says, but one must also have had the Spirit convict them that "shall" or "shall not" really means "shall" or "shall not"?

Possible answers; 1) Yes 2) No

Example;

Are you saying one could read "thou shall not kill" and the Spirit NOT convict them that this is a commandment that God holds them accountable to keep?

Possible answers; 1) Yes 2) No

This will help me understand better your pov as concerning how the Spirit works with God's written Word.

You seem to be saying that a person can read God's commandments, reject them or be confused of what murder really is because the Holy Spirit has NOT convicted them on what they had read.

If this is true, then we will have to take another look at election according to Calvin, maybe he was on to something. I know you and HP don't like Calvin much but it seems here you are saying much what Calvin said, that the Spirit does not convict all but makes choices and determines who may be saved and who may not through selecting (election) who gets conviction and who does not. Conviction being a requirement for any sin to be laid on one's account.

See I always held the pov that the Spirit always convicts when the Word is read and the person hearing it is accountable no matter if they try to reason their way around it. I never heard of this selective convicting before. That is why I believed all who heard the gospel and rejected it were held accountable. According to you this is not so, the Spirit is selective about who He chooses to convict.

Maybe we should do a thread on "Selective convicting of the Holy Spirit" and get some more input on this.


:jesus:

 

[DHK]

By some of the posts I am reading Hitler should be in Heaven for he (possibly) was never convicted of the Holy Spirit. If never convicted of the Holy Spirit, every murder he ever committed was done in ignorance of the law. Maybe he should be in heaven then? Do we have then a heaven full of "Hitlers"? I don't think I want to go to such a heaven.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Paul was no Hitler.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

You raise an interesting point DHK. What about a heaven where they are still the same old sinners committing the same old sins they once did? What about a heaven with your next door neighbor an unrepentant child molester, an unrepentant thief, an unrepentant robber, or the such like? Death is certainly no sanctifier.

 

[BobRyan]

By some of the posts I am reading Hitler should be in Heaven for he (possibly) was never convicted of the Holy Spirit.

1. The Bible says that the "Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

2. In Romans 1 Paul says that even the barbarians are "without excuse, for the invisible attributes of God are clearly seen in the things that have been made".

But neither of these statements argues that "all mankind has perfect doctrine on all truth" as some seem to suppose.

There are in fact many Christians today totally ignoring the bible teaching on believer's baptism by immersion - thinking that in so doing they are just fine and are "doing God service". But in Mark 7 - Christ said it is wrong to take man-made tradition over the Word of God. Still there are many who just do not connect the dots on that subject.

Thus there is no way to get around the Bible truth "to him that KNOWS to do right and does it not - to HIM it is sin" James 4:17.

Funny little stories about Hitler not withstanding.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Christ said that "if you did not see then you would not be accountable"

Christ said that there would come a time when those who killed you would think that they were doing God a service. In John 16:2

Paul said in Phil 3 that BEFORE becoming a christian HE himself thought that according to the righteousness that is in the law - he actually thought he was blameless. Phil 3:6

Paul said in 1Tim 1:13 that he was in fact chief of sinners a violent aggressor - but that he "acted ignorantly in unbelief". In acts 26:10 he says that when the saints were being put to death - he voted for their death.

James 4:17 states clearly "to him who KNOWS to do right and does it not to him it is sin".

Paul did not go around as a mass murderer before being a Christian - he knew the law forbade such things. But he was confused enough about the truth - so that he thought persecuting the saints was a good thing - since he did not regard them as saints - but as heretics and blasphemers.

----

However the Holy Spirit guides people into all truth as we see in John 16 "convicting them of SIN righteousness and judgment".

Bob, you are still confusing me with your comments. It's probably just me but if you just take my example and answer it yes or no then that will clear this up for me. Can you do this for me, call me slow but it is how I understand another's point of views. You want me to clearly understand you don't you?

I guess that for some - those Bible texts above are confusing. That had never occurred to me.

Then please, just answer my questions.

You say one is not held accountable and then you say the Holy Spirit guides people into all truth.

I asked if the Holy Spirit ever chooses NOT to convict a person who has read a commandment? No matter if the person is confused or trying to reason their way out of keeping it.

I don't have access to the Holy Spirit's diary - but what we do know is that in John 16 where Christ said "The Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgement" we ALSO have Christ saying "I have many MORE things to tell you but YOU Cannot bear them NOW".

One of those "inconvient truths" was that Christ was going to die instead of being crowned king.

Another "inconvenient truth" was that the gentiles were to be given the Gospel along with the Jews.

Another "inconvenient truth" was that Peter James and John were going to "sleep their way" right through the Gethsemane event where Christ prays for release from his mission to save the planet via separation from the Father -- as long as that can be the Father's will to do so.

This will help me understand better your pov as concerning how the Spirit works with God's written Word.

You seem to be saying that a person can read God's commandments, reject them or be confused of what murder really is because the Holy Spirit has NOT convicted them on what they had read.

Is this your comment on Phil 3? Where we find Paul saying that BEFORE being a Christian he thought of himself as being "BLAMELESS"??

And then comparing it to Acts 26:10 where he condemns himself - admitting that he was among those voting for the death of the saints - and yet in 1Tim 1:12 God considered Saul "faithful putting him into service" such that Paul claims "I was shown mercy BECAUSE I acted in ignorance" 1Tim 1:13

If this is true, then we will have to take another look at election according to Calvin, maybe he was on to something. I know you and HP don't like Calvin much but it seems here you are saying much what Calvin said, that the Spirit does not convict all but makes choices and determines who may be saved and who may not

My example of someone NOT convicted on a specific point was SAUL who later becomes PAUL. Just exactly how does that provid you an example of limited atonement that excludes Saul from salvation?

That is a bend-and-wrench of the point beyond even my imaginative ability.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Thus there is no way to get around the Bible truth "to him that KNOWS to do right and does it not - to HIM it is sin" James 4:17.

Funny little stories about Hitler not withstanding.

in Christ,

Bob

Everyone in this world knows "to do good," and every one in this world "does it not," because all in this world "are sinners," and "have sinned."

Romans 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

 

[BobRyan]

All the world is held accountable - held guilty before the Law of God - ALL are "under the LAW" and so all are condemned -- all are in need of a Savior.

But when the lost chooses to Accept Christ they are no longer under law but are under grace having the New Covenant promise of the "Law written on the human heart" Heb 8 -- JUST as we see in the extreme case of Gentiles in Romans 2 that have no access at all to the Word of God yet they "DO INSTINCTIVELY the things of the Law SHOWING the WORKS of the LAW written on the heart... for he is NOT a Jew who is one OUTWARDLY neither is circumcision that which is outward... he is a Jew that is one INWARDLY and circumcision is that which is of the HEART by the Holy Spirit" Rom 2:14,15,28,29

 

[steaver]

I guess that for some - those Bible texts above are confusing. That had never occurred to me.

in Christ,

Bob

Actually you are the one that said Paul was "confused" concerning the bible text on murder. What do you mean it never occured to you?

Is this your comment on Phil 3? Where we find Paul saying that BEFORE being a Christian he thought of himself as being "BLAMELESS"??

I don't mind commenting on your post, in fact I enjoy it, this is why I engage with you, but wouldn't it be respectful to answer my questions. Why wouldn't you want your pov tested with questions? I would never hold a pov that caused me to ignore questions or avoid answering questions. ANYTIME I am asked to give a direct yes or no answer I GLADLY give it. ANYTIME. I have no reason to fear giving a direct answer for this is how I have established my own point of views. If my views cannot bear questions that ask for direct answers then I have to question why it is I hold them in the first place.

My example of someone NOT convicted on a specific point was SAUL who later becomes PAUL. Just exactly how does that provid you an example of limited atonement that excludes Saul from salvation?

That is a bend-and-wrench of the point beyond even my imaginative ability.

Saul had knowledge of the commandment not to murder and you said that he was confused because the Holy Spirit had not convicted him of the true meaning of this commandment in scripture. Thus, you said Saul was not accountable because the Spirit never convicted him of the sin until later when he then stopped the murdering.

Are you now saying that this only goes for some commandments and not so for others like the commandment to believe on Jesus Christ?

:jesus:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Who said Paul was ever guilty of murder in the first place?

 

[steaver]

All the world is held accountable - held guilty before the Law of God - ALL are "under the LAW" and so all are condemned -- all are in need of a Savior.

You just said in earlier post that one is NOT held accountable IF the Holy Spirit has NOT convicted them. So you cannot say that the whole world is accountable unless you have the mind of God and know that He has convicted the whole world by the Holy Spirit.

So in affect you are saying that God HAS convicted EVERYBODY by the Holy Spirit. This is opposite of what you said earlier.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

Who said Paul was ever guilty of murder in the first place?

Get your bunny ears off HP and start answering some questions. Look back a couple of pages and start giving some answers to see if your views stand up.

:jesus:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Who said Paul was ever guilty of murder in the first place?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: THen you said Paul was not the "general rule". Does this mean Paul was saved some other way than people generally are saved?

HP: I haven’t heard of too many getting enlightened and saved by God as Paul did now that you mention it. In reality I was speaking more to his life prior to conversion that was an oddity and not the general rule. How many sinners do you know of that are honestly trying to serve God with their whole heart to the point of living in all good conscience? I say he was one of a kind. Would not you see Paul’s life prior to salvation as extremely unusual and as such certainly not the general rule?

 

[steaver]

There are in fact many Christians today totally ignoring the bible teaching on believer's baptism by immersion - thinking that in so doing they are just fine and are "doing God service". But in Mark 7 - Christ said it is wrong to take man-made tradition over the Word of God. Still there are many who just do not connect the dots on that subject.


in Christ,

Bob

So what? According to your own pov those people may not have "connected the dots" because the Holy Spirit has NOT convicted them on it and thus they are NOT held accountable for the word of God on this subject.

:jesus: