Who has not failed?

[steaver]

HP: I haven’t heard of too many getting enlightened and saved by God as Paul did now that you mention it. In reality I was speaking more to his life prior to conversion that was an oddity and not the general rule. How many sinners do you know of that are honestly trying to serve God with their whole heart to the point of living in all good conscience? I say he was one of a kind. Would not you see Paul’s life prior to salvation as extremely unusual and as such certainly not the general rule?

No I wouldn't and here is why. Most of the Pharisees were just like Paul in that they thought they were keeping God's commandments "blameless". Even today the Jews engaged in following the Torah believe they are keeping the commandments of God "blameless".

 

[steaver]

I see we have a "no" vote registered now. We have been blessed with having a sinless one among us.

raying:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Most of the Pharisees were just like Paul

HP: And where might you get that idea from??? Certainly not from Scripture.

Who said Paul was guilty of murder?

 

[steaver]

HP: And where might you get that idea from??? Certainly not from Scripture.

You think Paul was the only Pharisee who considered himself "blameless"? Paul was taking his orders from higher ups than he was he not?

Who said Paul was a murderer?

Start a thread HP, no rabbit trails here. :wavey:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver, when you start accusing Paul of murder on this thread, on this thread the point should be cleared up. That is no rabbit trail.

What does 'who Paul was taking his orders from' have to do with "most of the other Pharisees" considering themselves blameless just as Paul, as you proclaim???? Show us the evidence and the connection.

 

[steaver]

Steaver, when you start accusing Paul of murder on this thread, on this thread the point should be cleared up. That is no rabbit trail.

Act 22:20And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.

1Jo 3:15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Do you suppose Saul was LOVING his brother as he ws CONSENTING unto his death?

Gal 1:13For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:


Do you suppose Saul was persecuting and wasting the Christians out of love for them?

1Jo 3:15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Did Saul actually do any of the physical killing? I think not, nor would the Jews actually do the physical killing of Jesus, it was not allowed, yet they were guilty of rounding Him up. Paul most certainly understood his guilt in his part of rounding them up for the slaughter. Do you believe no Christians lost their lives as an indirect result of Saul's persecution?

Paul confessed his sins and you want to say to Paul, "No Paul, you did nothing wrong because the Holy Spirit did not convict you, it is the Holy Spirit's fault that you were confused about thou shall not kill".

What does 'who Paul was taking his orders from' have to do with "most of the other Pharisees" considering themselves blameless just as Paul, as you proclaim???? Show us the evidence and the connection.

Do some research HP. To be a Pharisee was to be considered "blameless" and "righteous", at least by their own self-aprasal.

1) A sect that seems to have started after the Jewish exile. In addition to OT books the Pharisees recognised in oral tradition a standard of belief and life. They sought for distinction and praise by outward observance of external rites and by outward forms of piety, and such as ceremonial washings, fastings, prayers, and alms giving; and, comparatively negligent of genuine piety, they prided themselves on their fancied good works. They held strenuously to a belief in the existence of good and evil angels, and to the expectation of a Messiah; and they cherished the hope that the dead, after a preliminary experience either of reward or of penalty in Hades, would be recalled to life by him, and be requited each according to his individual deeds. In opposition to the usurped dominion of the Herods and the rule of the Romans, they stoutly upheld the theocracy and their country's cause, and possessed great influence with the common people. According to Josephus they numbered more than 6000. They were bitter enemies of Jesus and his cause; and were in turn severely rebuked by him for their avarice, ambition, hollow reliance on outward works, and affection of piety in order to gain popularity. (Blue Letter Bible)

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus sure didn't see the scribes and Pharisees the way they seen themselves.

Phar⋅i⋅see –noun 1.a member of a Jewish sect that flourished during the 1st century b.c. and 1st century a.d. and that differed from the Sadducees chiefly in its strict observance of religious ceremonies and practices, adherence to oral laws and traditions, and belief in an afterlife and the coming of a Messiah.2.(lowercase

) a sanctimonious, self-righteous, or hypocritical person.

It is estimated that about 6000 persons were members of this sect at the time of Jesus. You could not be accepted as a Pharisee unless you followed the rules of the sect. You would have us to believe that Saul was the only one who was considered a "good" Pharisee.

When Paul says he was "blameless" it was from his sanctimonious, self-righteous, hypocritical point of view of what a good God fearing person ought to be. Paul was "blameless" according to the rules of his sect.

 

[BobRyan]

There are in fact many Christians today totally ignoring the bible teaching on believer's baptism by immersion - thinking that in so doing they are just fine and are "doing God service". But in Mark 7 - Christ said it is wrong to take man-made tradition over the Word of God. Still there are many who just do not connect the dots on that subject.


in Christ,

Bob

So what? According to your own pov those people may not have "connected the dots" because the Holy Spirit has NOT convicted them on it and thus they are NOT held accountable for the word of God on this subject.

:jesus:

Indeed - whether it be 2nd commandment breaking - worshipping images in church...
or praying to the dead in violation of Is 8:19-20
or ignoring the Bible teaching on believer's baptism
or ignoring the 4th commandment

Those of us who "see" the problem with violating God's Word in those area and are fully convicted - cannot claim blindness for ignoring that part of God's word.

But those who (as Paul says) "acted ignorantly in unbelief" 1Tim 1:13 are not held accountable for those specific sins (though they certainly are accountable for a host of other sins) until God chooses to convict them on those points. Since I do not have "The Holy Spirit's diary" I have no idea who is convicted on which one of those points at any given time -- God knows.

John 9:41 "Jesus said - 'IF you were blind you would have no sin but sine you say 'WE SEE' your sin remains' "

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Act 22:20And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.

1Jo 3:15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Do you suppose Saul was LOVING his brother as he ws CONSENTING unto his death?

Gal 1:13For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:


Do you suppose Saul was persecuting and wasting the Christians out of love for them?

1Jo 3:15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

.

Here is what Paul says OF HIMSELF in those days.

1Tim 1

12I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service,
13even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief;

Steaver - you have been carefully explaining to us WHY Paul should not have "received mercy" as though "acting ignorantly in unbelief" is not a factor -- as if James 4:17 is wrong "to him who KNOWS to do right and does it not TO HIM it is sin".

Your argument is "with the text" and so since you have not accepted it - you complain when you find someone who DOES accept that text. But in the end your argument is still just with the text itsef.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
All the world is held accountable - held guilty before the Law of God - ALL are "under the LAW" and so all are condemned -- all are in need of a Savior

You just said in earlier post that one is NOT held accountable IF the Holy Spirit has NOT convicted them. So you cannot say that the whole world is accountable unless you have the mind of God and know that He has convicted the whole world by the Holy Spirit.

So in affect you are saying that God HAS convicted EVERYBODY by the Holy Spirit. This is opposite of what you said earlier.

:jesus:

I find your logic illusive.

you argue that if the Holy Spirit is not convicting every one of every sin -- then He cannot be convicting EVERYONE of ANY particular sin no matter what John 16 says to the contrary.

Your argument is flawed. Your argument is "with the text"

God never says that he gives all mankind perfect understanding on all doctrine.

God never says there is no such thing as Paul's condition acting "ignorantly in unbelief".

God DOES show in Romans 1 that there are certain sins that even "Barbarians" are aware of - and so "they are without excuse".

But he never argues that EVERYONE on the planet knows about Bible baptism of believers.

He never argues that everyone knows about the book of Genesis.

He never argues that everyone knows about the command not to use images in worship.

And obviously to the extent that they engage in those things there are in fact SOME who "act ignorantly in unbelief". This is not to say that ALL are without knowledge in those areas - but certainly SOME are without that understanding.

Just stating the obvious.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

But those who (as Paul says) "acted ignorantly in unbelief" 1Tim 1:13 are not held accountable for those specific sins (though they certainly are accountable for a host of other sins) until God chooses to convict them on those points. Since I do not have "The Holy Spirit's diary" I have no idea who is convicted on which one of those points at any given time -- God knows.

in Christ,

Bob

Wait a minute, you said you do not have the "Holy Spirit's diary" but you noted (though they certainly are accountable for a host of other sins).

How do you know the Holy Spirit has convicted them of any sin? Paul had no conviction of any sins, he said he was blameless, right?, so he went thirty or forty years without any conviction, however old he was.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

I find your logic illusive.

you argue that if the Holy Spirit is not convicting every one of every sin -- then He cannot be convicting EVERYONE of ANY particular sin no matter what John 16 says to the contrary.

Your argument is flawed. Your argument is "with the text"

God never says that he gives all mankind perfect understanding on all doctrine.

God never says there is no such thing as Paul's condition acting "ignorantly in unbelief".

God DOES show in Romans 1 that there are certain sins that even "Barbarians" are aware of - and so "they are without excuse".

But he never argues that EVERYONE on the planet knows about Bible baptism of believers.

He never argues that everyone knows about the book of Genesis.

He never argues that everyone knows about the command not to use images in worship.

And obviously to the extent that they engage in those things there are in fact SOME who "act ignorantly in unbelief". This is not to say that ALL are without knowledge in those areas - but certainly SOME are without that understanding.

Just stating the obvious.

in Christ,

Bob

In you model above it is the Holy Spirit's responsibility if a person dies without being convicted of a truth they have knowledge of. This would include the commandment to believe on Jesus Christ and be saved. If one hears the gospel, but never is given conviction by the Holy Spirit then they are not held accountable for their unbelief. This is the ends of your pov.

My position is that when the word is heard the Holy Spirit is ALWAYS in sync with the Word convicting AT ALL TIMES and therefore one is not excused IF they have heard.

Your view has God selecting who will be convicted and given the opportunity to be saved and who will not.

:jesus:

 

[BobRyan]

My point is that there is no way around John 16 - where the Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

There is no way around 1Tim 1 where Paul admits there are those who "act ignorantly in unbelief" in certain areas -- but Paul does not claim anyone is ignorant of ALL sin.

And you mention the fact that Paul living in Jerusalem at the time of christ would most certainly have heard what Christ, and John the baptizer and the apostles were preaching - yet he rejected it "ignorantly in unbelief" as he said.

You seem to object to that.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

My point is that there is no way around John 16 - where the Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

There is no way around 1Tim 1 where Paul admits there are those who "act ignorantly in unbelief" in certain areas -- but Paul does not claim anyone is ignorant of ALL sin.

And you mention the fact that Paul living in Jerusalem at the time of christ would most certainly have heard what Christ, and John the baptizer and the apostles were preaching - yet he rejected it "ignorantly in unbelief" as he said.

You seem to object to that.

If I understand you right the "world" was that area that Paul and Christ could and did reach at their respective times.
If that were true, then the Great Commission of Mat.28:19,20--"Go, and teach ALL Nations...," becomes irrelevant.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Have I broken His commandments since I have ben saved? I said "Yes" of course. Many of them...sometimes many times. I dont want to, but I do. Just like every other christian who has ever lived.

But in another sense, no...not ever, since being born again.

The reason of course is that Christ took all my sins upon Himself, so...I have no sins on my record with God. Even though He sees me when blow it and sin...He has no sins on my record in heaven.

PRAISE GOD!!!

:godisgood:

 

[BobRyan]

My point is that there is no way around John 16 - where the Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

There is no way around 1Tim 1 where Paul admits there are those who "act ignorantly in unbelief" in certain areas -- but Paul does not claim anyone is ignorant of ALL sin.

And you mention the fact that Paul living in Jerusalem at the time of christ would most certainly have heard what Christ, and John the baptizer and the apostles were preaching - yet he rejected it "ignorantly in unbelief" as he said.

You seem to object to that.

If I understand you right the "world" was that area that Paul and Christ could and did reach at their respective times.
If that were true, then the Great Commission of Mat.28:19,20--"Go, and teach ALL Nations...," becomes irrelevant.

No I think that the "World" in John 16 is the same as the "World" in John 1 where John says that WORLD was made by Christ - we often call it planet earth today.

In John 12:32 Christ says He draws ALL mankind unto Him.

All are drawn and all are convicted of sin - but not all choose to respond to it. Notice that in Matt 23 Christ does not say "you had one chance to say yes and then we slam the door" -- rather he accuses the Jews of rejecting message after message - then he promises to send even more prophets to them - but in the end they turn them all away.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

My point is that there is no way around John 16 - where the Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".


You seem to object to that.

in Christ,

Bob

Here is the difference between my pov and your pov.

I say that this scripture you cite means that the Holy Spirit convicts a person EACH AND EVERYTIME the Word of God is read or heard by that person.

You say that this scripture you cite means that the Holy Spirit convicts a person selectively as the Holy Spirit chooses AND if the Holy Spirit does NOT convict then the person is NOT held accountable for that particular sin.

Your pov has no other end but to say God chooses whom He will convict and whom He will not. Therefore in the case of the sin of "unbelief" it would be possible for a person to have heard the gospel, NOT been convicted by the Holy Spirit and NOT be held accountable at judgment for NOT believing on the word that was spoken concerning Jesus Christ.

There is no way around 1Tim 1 where Paul admits there are those who "act ignorantly in unbelief" in certain areas -- but Paul does not claim anyone is ignorant of ALL sin.

When one "chooses" unbelief they indeed will act out of ignorance for they have rejected the Holy Spirit whom by is the ONLY way to recover from "ignorance".

And you mention the fact that Paul living in Jerusalem at the time of christ would most certainly have heard what Christ, and John the baptizer and the apostles were preaching - yet he rejected it "ignorantly in unbelief" as he said.

You seem to object to that.

Saul rejected the truth. because of my pov I understand this as Saul rejecting the Holy Spirit's conviction that what he has heard is the truth. Thus, Saul remained ignorant BECAUSE of his unbelief and thus continued in sin persecuting and wasting the children of God.

Saul found mercy for this ignorance AND unbelief for Jesus Himself stopped Saul in his tracks. Paul did receive a special portion of grace.
1) Paul rejected the written word of God concerning the Christ.
2) Paul rejected the Holy Spirit witness concerning the Christ
3) It took a visitation from Jesus Christ Himself before Saul submitted to Jesus as Lord.

Jesus could have left Saul die in his sin of unbelief and Saul would have been held accountable, but Jesus chose Saul to receive a special portion of mercy by paying him a personal visit (something very few has had the blessing of experiencing).

We have been given the word of God and the Holy Spirit to testify to us working with the written word of God. Thus, no one is excused. Paul was given even more, he was given a face to face with Jesus Himself and knew that he had received a special blessing and had obtained a great mercy for his ignorance in unbelief.

Your pov necessitates Calvin's form of election. Your pov allows for a person to hear the word of God commanding them to "believe on Jesus Christ" and NOt be held accountable because the Holy Spirit might NOT have convicted them of this truth.

 

[steaver]

Have I broken His commandments since I have ben saved? I said "Yes" of course. Many of them...sometimes many times. I dont want to, but I do. Just like every other christian who has ever lived.

But in another sense, no...not ever, since being born again.

The reason of course is that Christ took all my sins upon Himself, so...I have no sins on my record with God. Even though He sees me when blow it and sin...He has no sins on my record in heaven.

PRAISE GOD!!!

:godisgood:

Well, you still broke the commandments, but as you said they are all covered under the blood of Christ who always remains faithful to His flock.

:jesus:

 

[BobRyan]

In Christ's teaching in Matt 18 on "forgiveness revoked" he never makes the problem "failure of Christ to be faithful to His flock".

In Christs John 15 teaching on "branches IN ME" that are BROKEN off and cast into the fire and die -- Christ never says that the "problem" in those cases has to do with some "failur on the part of Christ to be faithful to his flock".

To the degree that we all see that point - I think there is common ground.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

My point is that there is no way around John 16 - where the Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

There is no way around 1Tim 1 where Paul admits there are those who "act ignorantly in unbelief" in certain areas -- but Paul does not claim anyone is ignorant of ALL sin.

And you mention the fact that Paul living in Jerusalem at the time of christ would most certainly have heard what Christ, and John the baptizer and the apostles were preaching - yet he rejected it "ignorantly in unbelief" as he said.

You seem to object to that.

Here is the difference between my pov and your pov.

I say that this scripture you cite means that the Holy Spirit convicts a person EACH AND EVERYTIME the Word of God is read or heard by that person.

You say that this scripture you cite means that the Holy Spirit convicts a person selectively as the Holy Spirit chooses AND if the Holy Spirit does NOT convict then the person is NOT held accountable for that particular sin.

1. I claim that the Holy Spirit ALWAYs convicts ALL of sin.
2. I also claim that the Holy Spirit does not make ALL sin apparent to ALL and I prove that with Paul's own 1Tim 1 "I acted ignorantly in unbelief".

Your pov has no other end but to say God chooses whom He will convict and whom He will not.

My POV states that God "convicts ALL" the world of Sin - but it also allows for the truth of the scripture we find in 1Tim 1 where some are "acting out of ignorance and in unbelief".

When one "chooses" unbelief they indeed will act out of ignorance for they have rejected the Holy Spirit whom by is the ONLY way to recover from "ignorance".

I think you just painted yourself in a corner by arguing that Paul's statement about "acting in ignorance out of unbelief" is placing him outside the reach of the Holy Spirit from which there is no recovery.

Saul found mercy for this ignorance AND unbelief for Jesus Himself stopped Saul in his tracks. Paul did receive a special portion of grace.
1) Paul rejected the written word of God concerning the Christ.
2) Paul rejected the Holy Spirit witness concerning the Christ
3) It took a visitation from Jesus Christ Himself before Saul submitted to Jesus as Lord.

Paul says he was shown mercy "because" he acted ignorantly in unbelief RATHER than in bold defiance against God.

We have been given the word of God and the Holy Spirit to testify to us working with the written word of God.

As had Saul -- in fact Saul was a leading student of Scripture. The bible told him "thou shalt not murder" just as it tells us today.

But "he thought" that the "saints were in fact heretics and blasphemers".

Your pov necessitates Calvin's form of election. Your pov allows for a person to hear the word of God commanding them to "believe on Jesus Christ" and NOt be held accountable because the Holy Spirit might NOT have convicted them of this truth.

My POV does not even remotely allow for Calvinism's limited atonement because I do not argue that God does not convict the wicked nor that He "does not convict some of the wicked" of sin and of their need.

Rather I agrue the truth of John 16 that ALL are convicted - the Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment.

But as Paul points out in 1Tim 1 He does not convict ALL the World of ALL their sin - because some are "acting in ignorance out of unbelief".

But the fact that they are ALL convicted of sin means they are ALL made aware of their need of salvation.

The fact that they are ALL convicted of "Righteousness and judgment" means that they are ALL convicted that God is the answer to their sin problem.

Thus as Paul points out in Romans1 EVEN the barbarians with no Bible access at all "are without excuse"


in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

1. I claim that the Holy Spirit ALWAYs convicts ALL of sin.
2. I also claim that the Holy Spirit does not make ALL sin apparent to ALL and I prove that with Paul's own 1Tim 1 "I acted ignorantly in unbelief".

My POV states that God "convicts ALL" the world of Sin - but it also allows for the truth of the scripture we find in 1Tim 1 where some are "acting out of ignorance and in unbelief".

I think you just painted yourself in a corner by arguing that Paul's statement about "acting in ignorance out of unbelief" is placing him outside the reach of the Holy Spirit from which there is no recovery.

Paul says he was shown mercy "because" he acted ignorantly in unbelief RATHER than in bold defiance against God.

As had Saul -- in fact Saul was a leading student of Scripture. The bible told him "thou shalt not murder" just as it tells us today.

But "he thought" that the "saints were in fact heretics and blasphemers".

My POV does not even remotely allow for Calvinism's limited atonement because I do not argue that God does not convict the wicked nor that He "does not convict some of the wicked" of sin and of their need.

Rather I agrue the truth of John 16 that ALL are convicted - the Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment.

But as Paul points out in 1Tim 1 He does not convict ALL the World of ALL their sin - because some are "acting in ignorance out of unbelief".

But the fact that they are ALL convicted of sin means they are ALL made aware of their need of salvation.

The fact that they are ALL convicted of "Righteousness and judgment" means that they are ALL convicted that God is the answer to their sin problem.

Thus as Paul points out in Romans1 EVEN the barbarians with no Bible access at all "are without excuse"


in Christ,

Bob

In the short version....."I WANT IT BOTH WAYS" :tear:

Sorry, you can't have it both ways. Where your error lies in in your misinterpretation and misapplication of 1 Tim 1. You need to stick with John 16.

But do not worry, I have good news! Apparantly the Holy Spirit has not yet convicted you of your error so you are doing it ignorantly in unbelief. You won't be held accountable for it. Praise Jesus!

:jesus: