Whom I am chief.

[standingfirminChrist]

Why did it not say I was instead of I am? Paul used the word 'was' almost twice as often as he used the word 'am'.

Was - 132 times
Am - 67 times

Guess what??

In the other 66 times 'am' was used, not once was Paul referring to past tense.

 

[Brother Bob]

Why did it not say I was instead of I am? Paul used the word 'was' almost twice as often as he used the word 'am'.

Was - 132 times
Am - 67 times

Guess what??

In the other 66 times 'am' was used, not once was Paul referring to past tense.

Spurgeon;

Make way, make way; I stand at the head of you, I am the chief of sinners. give me the lowest place; let me take the lowest room." "No," cries another, "not you; I am a greater sinner than you." Then the apostle Paul comes, and says: "I challenge you all, Manasseh and Magdalene, I challenge you. I will have the lowest place. I was a blasphemer, a persecutor, and injurious, but I have obtained mercy, that in me first God might show his long-suffering." Now, if Christ has saved the greatest sinner that ever lived, oh, sinner, great as you may be, you cannot be greater than the greatest, and he is able to save you.



BBob

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Spurgeon's words... they seem to add to the Word of God. And you adhere to his addition instead of believing Paul?

 

[Brother Bob]

Spurgeon's words... they seem to add to the Word of God. And you adhere to his addition instead of believing Paul?

Spurgeon and I understand what Paul said. Also the preacher from Mt. Zion Baptist in PA.

This preacher of the Mt. Zion Baptist Church of PA. has it right:

Paul felt the exceeding sinfulness of his sin. He classifies himself as the chief or first or foremost of all sinners. When you stop to look at Paul prior to his conversion you don't see a drunk, or a fornicator. You see a religious man, with strict adherence to the law. Phil. 3:4-6 enumerates some of his character (as an unregenerate man) and frankly he would be called a "good man" according to the standards of his day. (see also Acts 26:4-5) Concerning his morals, he was a straight arrow. But the Lord Jesus Christ changed his life. After realizing what he had done to the Christians, he hangs his head and remembers the persecution, injury and destruction he placed upon men and women of the faith. He then calls himself "chief" of all the sinners in the world that Christ came to die for.




BBob,

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I understand what Paul was saying. Since he used the word 'was' before in his epistle, it stands to reason if he was referring to his past life, he would have used the word 'was' in the verse in question as well.

I am sorry you do not understand what the word 'am' means.

 

[Brother Bob]

I understand what Paul was saying. Since he used the word 'was' before in his epistle, it stands to reason if he was referring to his past life, he would have used the word 'was' in the verse in question as well.

I am sorry you do not understand what the word 'am' means.

I am sorry you don't look any deeper than the word "am".

The Greek word for the "am" is:

1510
eimi
eimi
i-mee'
the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist (used only when emphatic):--am, have been, X it is I, was


Take your pick, I pick "have been" or "was".

BBob,

 

[standingfirminChrist]

again, Paul had used the word 'was' in previous verses. It would be silly to say he used the word 'am' to mean 'was' in the verse in question.

 

[webdog]

Spurgeon;

Make way, make way; I stand at the head of you, I am the chief of sinners. give me the lowest place; let me take the lowest room." "No," cries another, "not you; I am a greater sinner than you." Then the apostle Paul comes, and says: "I challenge you all, Manasseh and Magdalene, I challenge you. I will have the lowest place. I was a blasphemer, a persecutor, and injurious, but I have obtained mercy, that in me first God might show his long-suffering." Now, if Christ has saved the greatest sinner that ever lived, oh, sinner, great as you may be, you cannot be greater than the greatest, and he is able to save you.



BBob

As a full five pointer, Spurgeon would have to believe that to fit into the "P".

 

[EdSutton]

[Edited to add!] I'm not referring to your response to me, here about an ad hominem attack, but to the OP reference to these unknown and unstated individuals who suposedly advocate sin, as a lifestyle!

The OP does not say this and you have made a false accusation.

BBob,

If I perhaps phrased something (as opposed to quoting it) incorrectly, I'll stand corrected. However you did say in the OP, when referring to I Tim. 1:15, and I now quote:

To read into this scripture, so as to justify sin of Christians, is terrible wrong.

And again you alluded to this idea with this 'response' to webdog

I know you have been in discussions on here where some have used this scripture to justify that Christians commit chief sins. I know you have seen all the Pastors on TV, who ran off with a young woman, use it.

All I am asking for, even if I did not phrase it particularly well, is to quote who are these "some", especially on the BB, who supposedly have used this Scripture "to justify" any sin.

There is a 'great gulf fixed' between someone saying a person "can" i.e., "have the ability to" commit any sin, and them saying that one "may" i.e. "have permission to" commit any sin. I do not recall one single person saying we have that "permission", and have said exactly that.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

It seems everyone who ever runs off with a young woman, or molests little boys, the first thing they say is, well apostle Paul was chief of sinners

Everyone on here knows this is the truth. Not on BB, but everyone.

BBob

Commenting on your own quote again, I notice.

BTW, I do not recall one of these unnamed 'sleazeballs' (and yes, one who does either of these things IS a 'sleazeball', IMO, and you probably don't want to know what I might do to such, were it done to one of my family, and I caught a him or her at it, FTR) saying this, at least in public. Do you recall a particular instance where this is true, that I am not aware of?

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

He was a sinner. As we all are.

Just because one gets saved does not mean he is no longer a sinner. Paul struggled with sin often after his Damascus Road experience.

I am sorry you cannot see this.

Paul recognized himself in the present as 'chief of sinners.'

I completely agree with standingfirminChrist, here. Surprised that I agree with you completely, maybe for a change??

On other threads, more than one person, including me, have given the specific analysis of the word in the text, here rendered as "am". You are absolutely correct that the word "eimi" (Gk. letters -"ειμι", and pronounced as "ay-me" ) is here in the present tense ('I am'), denoted by the Greek ending of the root word, which is always given in the first person singular, both in the Concordances, and lexicons. Were the word to be "I was" in would appear as "En" (Gk. letters - "ην", and pronounced as "ane").

I will bolden the actual word as found in I Tim. 1:15, and copied and pasted from the Greek text on Bible Gateway.

15 πιστος ο λογος και πασης αποδοχης αξιος οτι χριστος ιησους ηλθεν εις τον κοσμον αμαρτωλους σωσαι ων πρωτος ειμι εγω (WHNU, TR1550, TR1894, MT, UBS-27)

The word "εγω", also emboldened, adds emphasis as a 'stronger "I"', here.

(Of course, I have posted this before, and it was completely ignored then, so should I expect this time to be different?) But I am still 'seconding' what you are saying, in the post, for you, standingfirminChrist, have it exactly right, here.

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

I completely agree with standingfirminChrist, here. Surprised that I agree with you completely, maybe for a change??

On other threads, more than one person, including me, have given the specific analysis of the word in the text, here rendered as "am". You are absolutely correct that the word "eimi" (Gk. letters -"ειμι", and pronounced as "ay-me" ) is here in the present tense ('I am'), denoted by the Greek ending of the root word, which is always given in the first person singular, both in the Concordances, and lexicons. Were the word to be "I was" in would appear as "En" (Gk. letters - "ην", and pronounced as "ane").

I will bolden the actual word as found in I Tim. 1:15, and copied and pasted from the Greek text on Bible Gateway.The word "εγω", also emboldened, adds emphasis as a 'stronger "I"', here.

(Of course, I have posted this before, and it was completely ignored then, so should I expect this time to be different?) But I am still 'seconding' what you are saying, in the post, for you, standingfirminChrist, have it exactly right, here.

Ed

The Greek word for the "am" is:

1510
eimi
eimi
i-mee'
the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist (used only when emphatic):--am, have been, X it is I, was


This preacher of the Mt. Zion Baptist Church of PA. has it right:

Paul felt the exceeding sinfulness of his sin. He classifies himself as the chief or first or foremost of all sinners. When you stop to look at Paul prior to his conversion you don't see a drunk, or a fornicator. You see a religious man, with strict adherence to the law. Phil. 3:4-6 enumerates some of his character (as an unregenerate man) and frankly he would be called a "good man" according to the standards of his day. (see also Acts 26:4-5) Concerning his morals, he was a straight arrow. But the Lord Jesus Christ changed his life. After realizing what he had done to the Christians, he hangs his head and remembers the persecution, injury and destruction he placed upon men and women of the faith. He then calls himself "chief" of all the sinners in the world that Christ came to die for.



Spurgeon;

Make way, make way; I stand at the head of you, I am the chief of sinners. give me the lowest place; let me take the lowest room." "No," cries another, "not you; I am a greater sinner than you." Then the apostle Paul comes, and says: "I challenge you all, Manasseh and Magdalene, I challenge you. I will have the lowest place. I was a blasphemer, a persecutor, and injurious, but I have obtained mercy, that in me first God might show his long-suffering." Now, if Christ has saved the greatest sinner that ever lived, oh, sinner, great as you may be, you cannot be greater than the greatest, and he is able to save you.



BBob

 

[Brother Bob]

As a full five pointer, Spurgeon would have to believe that to fit into the "P".

:laugh: :laugh: :tonofbricks:

 

[Brother Bob]

If I perhaps phrased something (as opposed to quoting it) incorrectly, I'll stand corrected. However you did say in the OP, when referring to I Tim. 1:15, and I now quote:
And I still stand by it, but it is no ad hominem as you stated.

And again you alluded to this idea with this 'response' to webdog

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
I know you have been in discussions on here where some have used this scripture to justify that Christians commit chief sins. I know you have seen all the Pastors on TV, who ran off with a young woman, use it.

I still stand by this also, which is not an ad hominem!

All I am asking for, even if I did not phrase it particularly well, is to quote who are these "some", especially on the BB, who supposedly have used this Scripture "to justify" any sin.

Look them up yourself, you were there in most of the discussions.

There is a 'great gulf fixed' between someone saying a person "can" i.e., "have the ability to" commit any sin, and them saying that one "may" i.e. "have permission to" commit any sin. I do not recall one single person saying we have that "permission", and have said exactly that.

This preacher of the Mt. Zion Baptist Church of PA. has it right:

Paul felt the exceeding sinfulness of his sin. He classifies himself as the chief or first or foremost of all sinners. When you stop to look at Paul prior to his conversion you don't see a drunk, or a fornicator. You see a religious man, with strict adherence to the law. Phil. 3:4-6 enumerates some of his character (as an unregenerate man) and frankly he would be called a "good man" according to the standards of his day. (see also Acts 26:4-5) Concerning his morals, he was a straight arrow. But the Lord Jesus Christ changed his life. After realizing what he had done to the Christians, he hangs his head and remembers the persecution, injury and destruction he placed upon men and women of the faith. He then calls himself "chief" of all the sinners in the world that Christ came to die for.



Spurgeon;

Make way, make way; I stand at the head of you, I am the chief of sinners. give me the lowest place; let me take the lowest room." "No," cries another, "not you; I am a greater sinner than you." Then the apostle Paul comes, and says: "I challenge you all, Manasseh and Magdalene, I challenge you. I will have the lowest place. I was a blasphemer, a persecutor, and injurious, but I have obtained mercy, that in me first God might show his long-suffering." Now, if Christ has saved the greatest sinner that ever lived, oh, sinner, great as you may be, you cannot be greater than the greatest, and he is able to save you.



BBob

Ed

Education hasn't went too far from Spurgeon's days, has it.

 

[Brother Bob]

Commenting on your own quote again, I notice.

BTW, I do not recall one of these unnamed 'sleazeballs' (and yes, one who does either of these things IS a 'sleazeball', IMO, and you probably don't want to know what I might do to such, were it done to one of my family, and I caught a him or her at it, FTR) saying this, at least in public. Do you recall a particular instance where this is true, that I am not aware of?

Ed

Yes, I recall and recently also, but I am not going to name them.

 

[Brother Bob]

I completely agree with standingfirminChrist, here. Surprised that I agree with you completely, maybe for a change??

I also agreed with the part that we still sin, but not with the part who Paul was talking about.


"I"

1473
egw
ego
eg-o'
a primary pronoun of the first person I (only expressed when emphatic):--






"am"
The Greek word for the "am" is:

1510
eimi
eimi
i-mee'
the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist (used only when emphatic):--am, have been, X it is I, was

Two separate words in Strong's!!! I think Strong's is a much better translator than you are Ed, (no harm) for they have thousands of translators who work on their translation, you are just one person, trying to speak Greek. (no harm) IMO

BBob,

 

[Allan]

I am sorry you don't look any deeper than the word "am".

The Greek word for the "am" is:

1510
eimi
eimi
i-mee'
the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist (used only when emphatic):--am, have been, X it is I, was

Take your pick, I pick "have been" or "was".

BBob,

Bob, I love you brother but you need to stop cherry picking here.
To re-quote the Strongs:
1510
eimi
eimi
i-mee'
the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist (used only when emphatic):--am, have been, X it is I, was

The present tense represents a simple statement of fact
or reality viewed as occurring in actual time.

I have looked at 17 different translations and only one says 'was' (that being the NLT). I personally in translating the text would use the word 'am' and not 'was'. Another poster stated the looked at 20 or 21 different translations and they only found one that used the wording 'was' the rest used the word 'am'. And personally I put little stock in the NLT. EVEN the KJV used 'am'.

Your notion that Paul is the greatest sinner who ever has, is, or will live is completely unbiblical. Paul was not in any sense of the phrase saying he is the greastest sinner that has ever, is, and who will ever live but that beclaring the the magnitude of his sin as only knows it. THAT is what the phrase inspired the Holy Spirit means.

Do you really believe Pauls sin, is and will be greater than that of the Anti-Christ. His sin will make Paul's (when he was unsaved) look like one of the redeemed by comparison of the two. There are still many more through out history and the before Pauls time who's sins trump Pauls by miles.

If you believe Paul WAS the greastest sinner to ever be or will ever be created, then what sins made him so, and has anyone else done those same things or even all of those same things. Will someone do more of the sins Paul did and even some Paul never did.

Remember, Paul was one of the greastest pharisees and lived (works wise) above reproach (to the pharisees that is). He did murder, sleep around, commit idolitry, et... outwardly. The murder part of only arguable in light of our born again understanding, but to him and others at that moment, he was doing just what they were supposed to as Jews/ children of God.

Did he rape children, sadistically mutilate the bodies for pleasure of adults and children alike? The list can go on and on as to what we 'presume' as a greater sin or lesser sin. But the FACT is, scirpture states to break the least of law is to be guilty of ALL of the law. Meaning is one part is broken, even the least you are guilty of breaking ALL of the laws. The same spiritual aspect is carried over regarding sin. To break the smallest aspect of what we 'presume' sin is, is to be guilty of SIN. If you lie - SIN, if you murder - SIN. SIN is SIN and there is no distinction in sin only the action commited that involves that sin. But the action does not enlarge the actaul status of the sin, only our perception of the degree we think the sin involves.

Can you name one sin that a Christian can commit without it being one of the greats according to you.

I believe a christian will not continue in sin and know of no one on the BB who believes a christian can maintain a lifestyle of sin as a Christian. That is our contention. Not that we can sin and get away with it but that if we sin we will not stay in it.

 

[Brother Bob]

Bob, I love you brother but you need to stop cherry picking here.
To re-quote the Strongs:
1510
eimi
eimi
i-mee'
the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist (used only when emphatic):--am, have been, X it is I, was

The present tense represents a simple statement of fact
or reality viewed as occurring in actual time.

I have looked at 17 different translations and only one says 'was' (that being the NLT). I personally in translating the text would use the word 'am' and not 'was'. Another poster stated the looked at 20 or 21 different translations and they only found one that used the wording 'was' the rest used the word 'am'. And personally I put little stock in the NLT. EVEN the KJV used 'am'.

Even if we use "am", Paul was still referring to the sins he committed before salvation, telling them that if the chief of sinners can be saved, so can they. (That is what all the early theologians believed anyway, as far as I can tell) Maybe you can prove me wrong?

Your notion that Paul is the greatest sinner who ever has, is, or will live is completely unbiblical. Paul was not in any sense of the phrase saying he is the greastest sinner that has ever, is, and who will ever live but that beclaring the the magnitude of his sin as only knows it. THAT is what the phrase inspired the Holy Spirit means.

Do you really believe Pauls sin, is and will be greater than that of the Anti-Christ. His sin will make Paul's (when he was unsaved) look like one of the redeemed by comparison of the two. There are still many more through out history and the before Pauls time who's sins trump Pauls by miles.

If you believe Paul WAS the greastest sinner to ever be or will ever be created, then what sins made him so, and has anyone else done those same things or even all of those same things. Will someone do more of the sins Paul did and even some Paul never did.

What matters is what Paul believed, not me!

I felt the same as Paul, that I am the greatest of sinners, but by the Grace of God my sins were blotted out, the same as Paul. I certainly believe it God saved me, he will save anyone and that is what Apostle Paul was saying.

Remember, Paul was one of the greastest pharisees and lived (works wise) above reproach (to the pharisees that is). He did murder, sleep around, commit idolitry, et... outwardly. The murder part of only arguable in light of our born again understanding, but to him and others at that moment, he was doing just what they were supposed to as Jews/ children of God.

This is what Paul meant when he said I am the chief of sinners. (my words, "but God's Grace saved me")

Did he rape children, sadistically mutilate the bodies for pleasure of adults and children alike? The list can go on and on as to what we 'presume' as a greater sin or lesser sin. But the FACT is, scirpture states to break the least of law is to be guilty of ALL of the law. Meaning is one part is broken, even the least you are guilty of breaking ALL of the laws. The same spiritual aspect is carried over regarding sin. To break the smallest aspect of what we 'presume' sin is, is to be guilty of SIN. If you lie - SIN, if you murder - SIN. SIN is SIN and there is no distinction in sin only the action commited that involves that sin. But the action does not enlarge the actaul status of the sin, only our perception of the degree we think the sin involves.

Can you name one sin that a Christian can commit without it being one of the greats according to you.

I believe Christians sin, but not the sins that are listed below:

1Cr 6:9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Cr 6:10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1Cr 6:11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

I believe a christian will not continue in sin and know of no one on the BB who believes a christian can maintain a lifestyle of sin as a Christian. That is our contention. Not that we can sin and get away with it but that if we sin we will not stay in it.
That "lifestyle of sin", making a way for Christians to commit any sin, is where you and I differ.

Allan;
I appreciate the comments but it seems that John Wesley, Spurgeon, D.L. Moody and others I have finished searching agrees with me, that Paul was referring to when he persecuted the church of God. That is also, what I believe.

I am not a Greek translator and do not pretend to be, but its strange that Strong's would use the different examples to explain the word "am" such as "have been".

So far, I have not found one of the early theologians who does not believe Paul was talking about before his salvation, to show that God could save anyone, regardless of how bad a sinner he is. That make much more sense to me than anything else.

I will keep searching to see if I find anyone of the early theologians who disagrees with me.

Maybe you can give me some theologian from the past who agrees that Paul is not talking about his past sins??

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

I picked the first one I googled;

By Charles Woodruff
"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief" (I Timothy 1:15).


Paul the apostle, whose conversion was a classic example, a pattern, as he said himself in verse 16; was shaken to the very core of his being, and changed from being Saul, a persecutor of the church, a hater of Christ, to the greatest advocate of the Christian faith. His pattern was remarkable, and is clear in the word of God, repeated several times in the book of Acts for all to see. Yet, I have heard preachers and teachers say "God doesn’t force anyone to be saved. He won’t violate their will". Well, it sure looks like to me that God used a bit of force to save Saul of Tarsus! There was a will involved all right, but primarily it was God’s. Read the account in Acts 9 for yourself, and you’ll see that Saul was "made willing" after being blinded, and knocked down to the earth and hearing a voice saying "Saul, Saul Why persecutest thou me?" (Acts 9:4). He then said "Who art thou Lord?" (Acts 9:5) When he heard "I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks" (Acts 9:5), Saul said "Lord what wilt thou have me to do?"(Acts 9: 5, 6).


Tim. 1:15

Wesley's Notes

1:15 This is a faithful saying - A most solemn preface. And worthy of all acceptation - Well deserving to be accepted, received, embraced, with all the faculties of our whole soul. That Christ - Promised. Jesus - Exhibited. Came into the world to save sinners - All sinners, without exception.


Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

1:12-17 The apostle knew that he would justly have perished, if the Lord had been extreme to mark what was amiss; and also if his grace and mercy had not been abundant to him when dead in sin, working faith and love to Christ in his heart. This is a faithful saying; these are true and faithful words, which may be depended on, That the Son of God came into the world, willingly and purposely to save sinners. No man, with Paul's example before him, can question the love and power of Christ to save him, if he really desires to trust in him as the Son of God, who once died on the cross, and now reigns upon the throne of glory, to save all that come to God through him. Let us then admire and praise the grace of God our Saviour; and ascribe to the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, three Persons in the unity of the Godhead, the glory of all done in, by, and for us.

I can not find anyone who agrees with you.

Paul was saying if he saved me, then he will save you.

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Allan
Bob, I love you brother but you need to stop cherry picking here.
To re-quote the Strongs:
1510
eimi
eimi
i-mee'
the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist (used only when emphatic):--am, have been, X it is I, was

used only when emphatic includes am, have been, X it is I, was




1 Tim. 15

I don't know why I didn't read the next verse, for it explains it all.

15: This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

16: Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Verse 16 plainly says what I been saying all along, that Paul was speaking of his salvation, that if Jesus saved him, he would save any sinner.

BBob,