Whose Son is YHVH, the Christ?

[The Biblicist]

There's no such thing as 3 persons in 1 Being. That's heresy.

Do you consider the Athanasian defined doctrine of the Trinity heresy?

 

[The Biblicist]

Yes and No...... As I have posted before, YHVH, because of his physical nature as our Lord God.... even in the Old Testament..... his power was limited compare only to his invisible Father.... who's omnicient and omnipresent.... the Spirit of Love that never change.



:godisgood:

Are you saying that The Holy Spirit is not a Personage distinct from The Father but only an attribute of the Father?

 

[The Biblicist]

Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

The same Hebrew term "ECHAD" and it does not mean ONE COLLECTIVELY here as they had but ONE father IN NUMBER and therefore ONE God in number.

"I and the Father are ONE" - Jn. 10:30

The term for "one" is neuter not masculine. numerically One IN NATURE - the same divine essence.

You never addressed this use of "ECHAD" in Malichi 2:10. Do you believe it is a collective "father" in this verse or one in number?

 

[The Biblicist]

Isaiah 43:10 does not teach that YHVH was "formed" because YHVH is not the subject of the verb "formed." The subject of the verb "formed" is "No God" and that is a reference to some other God in addition to him "besides me." He is asserting his ETERNAL EXISTENCE as God. Just as Paul did when he said of Christ:

Col. 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

No God existed before him and no God existed after him. Isaiah repeats this same truth even using the very same phrase "ye are...my witnesses" and makes that crystal clear to anyone who can read English:

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isaiah 43:10~11 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD (YHVH), and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. v11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

These texts are as plain as the nose on your face! There is no other God in existence but YHVH and YHVH is the same name for all three Divine Persons of the Godhead:

Isa, 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

There are TWO in verse 6 speaking and both claiming to be YHVH. Note the possessive pronoun "and HIS redeemer the LORD." The nearest antecedent to that pronoun is "the LORD, the King of Israel. Here is absolute proof that YHVH is equally ascribed to BOTH persons and there are TWO persons here.

I post this again because you have never addressed the particulars of the above mentioned texts.

Also, you never responded on the clarification that Isaiah 44:8 gives to Isaiah 43:10 in regard to what they were actually witnesses of!

Isa. 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declaredit? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any

Isaiah 43:10~11 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD (YHVH), and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. v11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Apparently you know something that YHVH claims He did not know! He obviously is not referring to anyone witnessing Himself being "formed" but is denying that any OTHER GOD has ever been formed because "there is no God; I know not any."

 

[Moriah]

Hello Moriah,
I believe in one (echad) God.... compounded one that is.

I am not sure what you mean by compounded one. I do not use the word trinity but how does your beliefs differ from the trinity, if at all?

While the Son and the Holy Spirit both proceed from the Almighty God, they all became distinct and separate Divine Entities from each other… upon being brought forth into this physical world from the invisible realm of the Father. However, they are all united (compound unity) as one God (Elohim-Plural).

I know what I believe as for God creating Jesus, His visible being, His Word, then all creation created by Jesus and for Jesus.
However, I also believe that the Holy Spirit is Jesus. I believe Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and Jesus is the Holy Spirit. I can show scripture showing that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same.
Do you agree?

 

[The Biblicist]

I am not sure what you mean by compounded one. I do not use the word trinity but how does your beliefs differ from the trinity, if at all?

I know what I believe as for God creating Jesus, His visible being, His Word, then all creation created by Jesus and for Jesus.
However, I also believe that the Holy Spirit is Jesus. I believe Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and Jesus is the Holy Spirit. I can show scripture showing that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same.
Do you agree?

Do you accept the "Trinity doctrine" and if not then how does your doctrine differ than the Trinity doctrine. Please spell it out clearly.

 

[Moriah]

Do you accept the "Trinity doctrine" and if not then how does your doctrine differ than the Trinity doctrine. Please spell it out clearly.

You just quoted my beliefs, and you believe in the Catholic trinity; therefore, why not you spell out the differences.

 

[The Biblicist]

You just quoted my beliefs, and you believe in the Catholic trinity; therefore, why not you spell out the differences.

I know what the Trinity doctrine is but I do not know what you believe. I thought the best way is for you to explain your doctrine in contrast to the Trinity doctrince since that is a point of reference for both of us.

Didn't you ask Seve to do the very same thing I am asking you? Didn't you ask him to explain what he believes in comparison with the doctrine of the Trinity? I am simply asking you to do what you have asked him to do.

 

[DHK]

Thank you for discussing this with me. I believe our beliefs on this is the same; however, I want to confirm that my belief is that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are the same.
How about you, do you say that too?
It might be an obvious answer, but I try not to ever assume anything.

God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are not one, as you affirm here.
You contradict yourself Moriah. Now come clear with the truth!
Is the above true?
Or here is what you posted on your website:

Through Jesus we have access to the Father by one Spirit. We have God and Jesus’ love in us. God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit. God poured out the Holy Spirit on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior. Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.
The Holy Spirit will teach us and remind us of Jesus’ words. We have the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.

Obviously God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not one, according to what you have posted. You have them all clearly differentiated according to their various roles. You can't have it both ways. Which way do you believe.


http://christiandefenseofthetruth.wordpress.com/2011/10/01/the-holy-spirit/

 

[Moriah]

God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are not one, as you affirm here.

God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are the same.

You contradict yourself Moriah. Now come clear with the truth!

I do not contradict myself. You just like to say things like that.

Obviously God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not one, according to what you have posted.

I do not understand what you are saying. Do you agree with what I posted, why or why not?

 

[DHK]

I am not sure what you mean by compounded one. I do not use the word trinity

Wilt thou therefore speak with words which one findeth only in the KJV??

Answereth thou me!!

 

[The Biblicist]

God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are the same.

Are the same what?

 

[Moriah]

God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are not one, as you affirm here.
You contradict yourself Moriah. Now come clear with the truth!
Is the above true?
Or here is what you posted on your website:

Obviously God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not one, according to what you have posted. You have them all clearly differentiated according to their various roles. You can't have it both ways. Which way do you believe.


http://christiandefenseofthetruth.wordpress.com/2011/10/01/the-holy-spirit/

I am waiting for you to explain these false charges.

 

[DHK]

I am waiting for you to explain these false charges.

Please explain how they are false.
The website comes from your profile. It is your material.

The statement comes from your post. I quoted you.
So choose which one is correct.
Both can't be. Explain yourself.

 

[Moriah]

Please explain how they are false.

No, you need to explain. You made the false accusation that I contradict myself. Now, explain exactly where and how.

The website comes from your profile. It is your material.
The statement comes from your post. I quoted you.
So choose which one is correct.
Both can't be. Explain yourself.

You need to explain why both cannot be correct.

Do you not believe that Jesus is God in the flesh?
Do you not believe that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same?

 

[The Biblicist]

Do you not believe that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same?

The same what?

 

[Moriah]

The same what?

The same what?

You need to elaborate.

 

[The Biblicist]

The same what?

You need to elaborate.

That is precisely what I am asking you to do! You said they were the "same"? Are they the same God as in the Trinity doctrine? Are they the same God in the Oneness doctrine? Are they the same Being, same Person, same substance, same essence, same what?

 

[DHK]

No, you need to explain. You made the false accusation that I contradict myself. Now, explain exactly where and how.

You need to explain why both cannot be correct.

Do you not believe that Jesus is God in the flesh?
Do you not believe that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same?

In your website you differentiate the different roles that each play.
Each one: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is deity.
Each one: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are different persons. They are co-equal, co-eternal, co-existing beings that are three persons and yet existing in one God.

"I am the Lord saith Jehovah, know and understand that there was no God before me and there shall no God be after me. I am the Lord, and beside me is no savior."

There is only one God, but he exists in three persons; hence the trinity.

Each person of the triune Godhead can be shown to be deity in different parts of the Bible.
1. We know that the Father is God. "Our Father who art in heaven..."
2. Jesus many times claims to be God. "I and my father are one."
3. The Holy Spirit (Acts 5) You have not lied unto man but unto God. You have lied to the Holy Spirit.

At the baptism of Christ all three persons existed as separate beings. But they were all there.

They cannot be the same God. Jesus was subject to the Father in all things. Jesus sits at the right hand of the throne of God. The Spirit dwells within us. They have different roles as you have pointed out in your website.
Therefore "they are not all the same."

 

[Moriah]

In your website you differentiate the different roles that each play.
Each one: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is deity.
Each one: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are different persons. They are co-equal, co-eternal, co-existing beings that are three persons and yet existing in one God.

"I am the Lord saith Jehovah, know and understand that there was no God before me and there shall no God be after me. I am the Lord, and beside me is no savior."

There is only one God, but he exists in three persons; hence the trinity.

Each person of the triune Godhead can be shown to be deity in different parts of the Bible.
1. We know that the Father is God. "Our Father who art in heaven..."
2. Jesus many times claims to be God. "I and my father are one."
3. The Holy Spirit (Acts 5) You have not lied unto man but unto God. You have lied to the Holy Spirit.

At the baptism of Christ all three persons existed as separate beings. But they were all there.

They cannot be the same God. Jesus was subject to the Father in all things. Jesus sits at the right hand of the throne of God. The Spirit dwells within us. They have different roles as you have pointed out in your website.
Therefore "they are not all the same."

They are the same.
1. We know that the Father is God. "Our Father who art in heaven..."
2. Jesus many times claims to be God. "I and my father are one."
3. The Holy Spirit (Acts 5) You have not lied unto man but unto God. You have lied to the Holy Spirit.
I can give you even more scriptures to show they are the same, as you have shown with these examples.