Why Do Arminians Pray for the Salvation of the Lost?

[thatbrian]

Ok...i will bite on this....ITL.....have you ever prayed and asked God to save someone?
If you answer yes.....what were you asking God to Do?
What were you requesting and asking God?
Did you ask for God to give the person a new heart?
Did you ask for God to regenerate that dead sinner to life?
Did you ask for God to make the person willing and able to respond saving my to the word preached?
Have you asked God to prepare the persons heart to welcome the word preached?
Have you asked for God to give the person no peace, and no rest until they rest in Jesus?

That is a few examples of the question of the op..
Now if you do not petition for any of these things....what do you specifically pray for instead.....is that clearer?

Thanks for keeping the focus on the OP. You've framed the questions well. We understand that the intellectually honest Arminian bumps his head into the inconsistency of his theology in trying to answer these questions, which is why we haven't had a direct answer to them. One would hope that he follows that honesty to where it leads and he rejects the false position he holds rather than either running away or attempting to divert our attention to something other than the question at hand.

 

[thatbrian]

My theology says Jesus saves.

You didn't finish the sentence. "My theology says Jesus saves" those whom, as He looks into the future, sees choosing Him first.

 

[Iconoclast]

Thanks for keeping the focus on the OP. You've framed the questions well. We understand that the intellectually honest Arminian bumps his head into the inconsistency of his theology in trying to answer these questions, which is why we haven't had a direct answer to them. One would hope that he follows that honesty to where it leads and he rejects the false position he holds rather than either running away or attempting to divert our attention to something other than the question at hand.

ITL.in his last post did step up and answer.

 

[Don]

You didn't finish the sentence. "My theology says Jesus saves" those whom, as He looks into the future, sees choosing Him first.

Put words in people's mouths much? Cause my sentence was finished.

By "finishing" it for me, you merely proved the strawman argument that has been presented against you.

 

[thatbrian]

Put words in people's mouths much? Cause my sentence was finished.

By "finishing" it for me, you merely proved the strawman argument that has been presented against you.

I don't think you are familiar with the Arminian position on election, Don. That's why we are having difficulty.

 

[thatbrian]

ITL.in his last post did step up and answer.

Didn't see it. He's likely on my ignore list.

​

 

[Reformed]

But, Gods will will be done with or without us?

I believe you may have misread my post. Prayer is for us, not God. When we petition God for a request are we to think God has not yet made up His mind and that praying it will somehow sway Him to give us what we want? Isaiah wrote, "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are My ways your ways" (Isa. 55:8). To know the mind of God is not to know His thoughts. No. When we pray we are attempting to get our mind in sync with God, not the other way around. Psa. 37:4 is a perfect example. "Delight yourself in the LORD, and He will give you the desires of your heart." As we "delight" ourselves in the LORD, it is not the key to unlocking the secret to health, wealth, and prosperity; it is our desire changing to His desire. It is the same principle with prayer. The more we pray the more we should pray for things from God's perspective. Ergo, we become more like God in our wants and desires.

I hope this helps.

 

[InTheLight]

I believe you may have misread my post. Prayer is for us, not God. When we petition God for a request are we to think God has not yet made up His mind and that praying it will somehow sway Him to give us what we want? Isaiah wrote, "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are My ways your ways" (Isa. 55:8).

How do you interpret Isaiah 38:1-5?

In those days Hezekiah became sick and was at the point of death. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came to him, and said to him, "Thus says the Lord : Set your house in order, for you shall die, you shall not recover." Then Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the Lord , and said, "Please, O Lord , remember how I have walked before you in faithfulness and with a whole heart, and have done what is good in your sight." And Hezekiah wept bitterly. Then the word of the Lord came to Isaiah: "Go and say to Hezekiah, Thus says the Lord , the God of David your father: I have heard your prayer; I have seen your tears. Behold, I will add fifteen years to your life.
Isaiah 38:1‭-‬5 ESV






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[HankD]

Calvinists pray to God precisely because He is sovereign. It makes no sense to appeal to God in prayer for the unbeliever when ultimately, the unbeliever's fate is in his own hands. God, in the mind of the Arminian, has already done everything He can do to save the sinner.

What sense does it make to ask Him to do something about what He has no control over?

the ultimate in human logic brings EVERYONE to that conclusion.

Why bother then? Because Jesus overlooks the folly of human logic.

Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

HankD

 

[InTheLight]

ITL.in his last post did step up and answer.

Didn't see it. He's likely on my ignore list.​

Well, I wasn't on Sunday.

 

[Reformed]

How do you interpret Isaiah 38:1-5?

In those days Hezekiah became sick and was at the point of death. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came to him, and said to him, "Thus says the Lord : Set your house in order, for you shall die, you shall not recover." Then Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the Lord , and said, "Please, O Lord , remember how I have walked before you in faithfulness and with a whole heart, and have done what is good in your sight." And Hezekiah wept bitterly. Then the word of the Lord came to Isaiah: "Go and say to Hezekiah, Thus says the Lord , the God of David your father: I have heard your prayer; I have seen your tears. Behold, I will add fifteen years to your life.
Isaiah 38:1‭-‬5 ESV

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The LORD always had this planned for Hezekiah. Hezekiah's prayer did not change God's mind. Hezekiah cried out to God for his benefit, not God's. Passages such as Isaiah 38:1-5 and Genesis 18:22-33 have to be viewed from the perspective of God's omniscience and immutability. God prevails upon the heart of men, not the other way around. God can move us to prayer when every other avenue is shut down and our need for God is most keen.

 

[Don]

I don't think you are familiar with the Arminian position on election, Don. That's why we are having difficulty.

It's clear you haven't actually read Arminius, Brian. I believe that's why we're having difficulty.

 

[Yeshua1]

The O. P. Is asking us to defend a premise we don't believe. Why would we do that?

The arminian basis is that God has sent saving Grace to all sinners, and that we have to freely decide to accept/reject Jesus, correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

It's clear you haven't actually read Arminius, Brian. I believe that's why we're having difficulty.

Calvinists hold to individual election, and arminians with Corporate election, correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

It's clear you haven't actually read Arminius, Brian. I believe that's why we're having difficulty.

Calvinists hold that God Himself first elects the sinner to be on eof His own, and that the Holy Spirit will bring that sinner to faith in Christ, while Arms hold that God bases election into the Body by when the sinner freely decides to co operate and work with the saving Grace of God, correct?

 

[SheepWhisperer]

I got in on this one late, and I'm not an Arminian. But Paul prayed for the lost......

Romans 10:1
10 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

 

[thatbrian]

It's clear you haven't actually read Arminius, Brian. I believe that's why we're having difficulty.

I haven't read Calvin much either, but I do understand the points of contention. Conditional vs unconditional election being one of them.

 

[Felipe Rios]

The Arminian position is that God looked down the corridors of time to see who would believe in Him, and then He elected those who would. In their view, God presents an "offer" to all men and some choose to believe. He then, through "prevenient grace" temporarily suspends the damage done by the Fall so that a man is free to "respond".

So, my question is, why do Arminians pray for the salvation of uncle Billy or cousin Daisy? What exactly are they asking God to do?

What a stupid question. That's like asking, why do Calvinists preach the gospel, after all, God already elected those who will be saved. Come on bro!

 

[Don]

Calvinists hold that God Himself first elects the sinner to be on eof His own, and that the Holy Spirit will bring that sinner to faith in Christ, while Arms hold that God bases election into the Body by when the sinner freely decides to co operate and work with the saving Grace of God, correct?

Arminius defined election as "the decree of God by which, of Himself, from eternity, He decreed to justify in Christ, believers, and to accept them unto eternal life." God alone determines who will be saved and his determination is that all who believe Jesus through faith will be justified. According to Arminius, "God regards no one in Christ unless they are engrafted in him by faith." (Arminius, III:311)

I think the key phrasing from your question regards "cooperate" and "work with." Arminius' writings use the wording "respond." We could play semantics with whether responding is "working with"; suffice to say, in Arminius' view, no one is able to respond unless first drawn.

The simple wording of your question falls more in line with Wesleyan arminianism.

Arminius is complicated; perhaps too complicated, in some respects. There are aspects that I don't agree with. But I'm not fully in agreement with Calvin, either. If I had time, some day I'd like to write out where I understand the calvinistic position (starting with the picture of the Israelites as the chosen), to the points of John 6, to the multiple verses throughout the New Testament (as Hank has been pointing out) that point to the repeated command of "believe," and the warnings of non-salvific belief.

However, I'm now on a trip with my wife, children, and grandchildren, and don't think I'll have such time for a while.

I don't place my salvation status on being one of the elect; it is solely Jesus' finished work and God's grace. For me, the end of the matter is Hebrews 10:39 - But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

 

[Yeshua1]

Arminius defined election as "the decree of God by which, of Himself, from eternity, He decreed to justify in Christ, believers, and to accept them unto eternal life." God alone determines who will be saved and his determination is that all who believe Jesus through faith will be justified. According to Arminius, "God regards no one in Christ unless they are engrafted in him by faith." (Arminius, III:311)

I think the key phrasing from your question regards "cooperate" and "work with." Arminius' writings use the wording "respond." We could play semantics with whether responding is "working with"; suffice to say, in Arminius' view, no one is able to respond unless first drawn.

The simple wording of your question falls more in line with Wesleyan arminianism.

Arminius is complicated; perhaps too complicated, in some respects. There are aspects that I don't agree with. But I'm not fully in agreement with Calvin, either. If I had time, some day I'd like to write out where I understand the calvinistic position (starting with the picture of the Israelites as the chosen), to the points of John 6, to the multiple verses throughout the New Testament (as Hank has been pointing out) that point to the repeated command of "believe," and the warnings of non-salvific belief.

However, I'm now on a trip with my wife, children, and grandchildren, and don't think I'll have such time for a while.

I don't place my salvation status on being one of the elect; it is solely Jesus' finished work and God's grace. For me, the end of the matter is Hebrews 10:39 - But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

The main difference seems to be that in calvinism, God chooses us, in Arminian, we choose God, and that is due to difference between not able to resist the grace of God, and being able to do that in a salvation sense.