Why do people choose differently?

[johnp.]

Hello Allan.

You never finish the verse.

It is irrelevant to the discussion. RO 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men...
Since the 'all men' means Jews and Gentiles.

It know why you don't since it speaks specifically agianst your view so you have to cut it in half, but it still bugs me.

Then you should think again as I would not use a verse against my interests would I? What bugs you, the fact that all those in Adam are condemned for Adam's sin or is it that only those in Christ are justified for Christ's obedience?

You are right no man seeks after God of himself.

I am, I read it in the bible. So you are saying that men do seek after God because God enables them?

But that does not speak to the issue of God reaching out to man. That changes the matter and even you will agree with that.

Jesus reached out for His sheep where did you get the impression that He reaches out to all men when the scriptures state that those without the law will perish?
RO 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men...
Rom 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message...
RO 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law...
PS 147:19 He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. 20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.

A novel way to reach out to all men a? But then if Christ justified all men no one need do anything as all men are justified are they not? ...so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
Since we did nothing to be in the first Adam so we do nothig to be in the Second Adam. Just predestined accidents of birth or do you believe that you can change your own Father like you slaves believe you are sovereign and are able to change your own master?
The Spirit gives birth He does not enable one to choose one's own destiny, God is Sovereign.

But scripture states that man does have a form of righteousness. But in the salvic sence it is nothing but filthy rags.

Therein lays your problem. You live in a contradiction. Our filthy rag of righteousness is not righteousness is it? Unless a man is born again he remains at emnity with his Maker. Nowhere do I read that God lifts men up to a point so they are able because not all are able, one must be born again, Rom 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message...
RO 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law...
PS 147:19 He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. 20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.

Apart from a remnant the world was cut off while Jesus worked with the Israelites. Now He has cut them off, apart from a remnant, while He works His works with us Gentile dogs. For 2000 years the Jew has been hardened and God set His face against 2000 years of generations of Jews who were deaf, blind and reprobated. Jesus promised them that they would not see Him again until He returns.

He led them astray don't you know? ISA 63:17 Why, O LORD, do you make us wander from your ways and harden our hearts so we do not revere you? Return for the sake of your servants, the tribes that are your inheritance.

A good prayer for the Church I think. Another is, LK 11:4 Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us. And lead us not into temptation. ' " We are commanded to pray that God does not lead us into temptation not deny He leads us into it.

I love Romans 7, it speaks DIRECTLY to the FACT though man CAN NOT DO good mans can will or desire to do that which he can not.

If I understand you correctly: Paul is speaking as a Christian because he loves the word of the Lord whereas a man that is not born again cannot understand the law of God but he remains at emnity. Romans 7 says that we are not in control of our fallen nature and it is that fallen nature that sins.

...for to will is present with me...

As a Christian but even if you want to believe man is able to see the right way and to have a desire to do good in his fallen state that in itself does not guarantee salvation because It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. Rom 9:16. He turned those five virgins away even though they wanted in.

All of these say the same thing. Paul states that sinful man may desire or will to do good (salvic works) but he can not DO them.

Only faith pleases God.

Now what happens when God sets before man a choice through which he DOES NOTHING but must only beleive God and that He (God) will do all those salvic good thing both TO and FOR Him. good example Duet 30:19-20 but that is one of many

JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

RO 4:4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
You do not do nothing when you believe, belief is a work. I highlight that because I want to expose the lie that the impossible is nothing much, MT 19:25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?" 26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Now is faith/belief a work, not according to scripture and is why it is considered the only thing a man can do as belief is possible of EVERY man.

JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
What is faith? Faith is a work. Who says? Jesus says. It is only considered not to be a work by those who are enslaved by their own righteousness.

Faith/belief is not a work.

It is good to see the word come back together, it has a split personality with some.

"The work : to believe
"The work : to believe
"The work : to believe

John 6:29.

Faith/belief is not a work.

You say you are a teacher?

john.

 

[webdog]

It is irrelevant to the discussion. RO 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men...
Since the 'all men' means Jews and Gentiles.

Posting a full verse in context instead of portions out of context is irrelevant to a discussion? Wow. You really have no right questioning the teaching ability of Allan.

 

[reformedbeliever]

If they of the natural man can not seek after God, then the paramont question here is:
"Why" are they preaching the Word of the Lord?
"Why" are they casting out demons?
And 'Why" are they doing supernatural works IN HIS NAME?

I already gave you the answer Allan. It just didn't suit your theolgy, so you try to ignore what I said. Isn't that what you guys accuse us calvinist of? :laugh:

They are seeking fortune or fame. Didn't the magician in Acts 8 believe? Didn't he seek to do these supernatural acts? Of course. But he didn't have faith/ Holy Spirit indwelling. He was seeking fortune and fame. Even demons believe and fear and tremble. They do not have faith however, nor the Holy Spirit.

Just because someone claims to do things in the name of the Lord, does not mean they are truly doing such in the name of the Lord. I believe that other spirits, other than the Holy Spirit, can give them the power to do whatever.... such as cast out spirits etc.

Of course you could say that men truly seek and believe, but the Lord will say "go away for I never knew you" , because they simply were not His elect... He didn't "know" them. I however do not lean that much toward hypercalvinism. I would rather believe that they were really just seeking fortune and fame. I suppose you could also believe that they simply fall away... maybe had faith and then lost it. I wouldn't however.... since I believe in the sovereign grace of God.

 

[npetreley]

Of course you could say that men truly seek and believe, but the Lord will say "go away for I never knew you"

I don't get this at all, either. Whatever happened to "seek and you will find", or "he who comes to me I will in no way cast out"? If these people were truly seeking Jesus, doesn't that make Jesus a liar? I agree with you, they're fakes with selfish motives.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I don't get this at all, either. Whatever happened to "seek and you will find", or "he who comes to me I will in no way cast out"? If these people were truly seeking Jesus, doesn't that make Jesus a liar? I agree with you, they're fakes with selfish motives.

I'll go even a little farther Npet. They don't want to be lost. They don't want to go to hell. They desire heaven. Along with a lot of other of their accomplishments. But it is from a selfish desire... they want these things out of selfishness.

The big difference here is this. There are those who "seek" God out of their selfish desires..... fire insurance if you will..... then there are those who cry out in despair... and say "God I am completely unworthy, I deserve my punishment, but God I am so sorry for what my sins did to Jesus". Their heart is broken that Jesus would love them so much.... even while they were still spitting in His face.... that He would die for them. They don't seek God out of selfish desire, but they do have Godly repentence and faith........ and that is what saves them.

 

[npetreley]

The big difference here is this. There are those who "seek" God out of their selfish desires..... fire insurance if you will..... then there are those who cry out in despair... and say "God I am completely unworthy, I deserve my punishment, but God I am so sorry for what my sins did to Jesus". Their heart is broken that Jesus would love them so much.... even while they were still spitting in His face.... that He would die for them. They don't seek God out of selfish desire, but they do have Godly repentence and faith........ and that is what saves them.

You'll get no argument from me.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Hey Reformed, long time no see.

Hey back at you brother. I have been extreemly busy with the new church start. I've felt it was best that I concentrate my time and attention to growing this new church. There are other reasons also. I've kinda gone to just lurking and not posting much. As I sit back and observe these forums, there are some things I am seeing that is really pretty disturbing. Instead of unity and love, there is so much.... for lack of a better word... hate. I have observed so much on this forum that has really just broken my heart. Hatred for other people of other faiths... and even hatred for fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. I hate to think of what non Christians think as they read these forums. They may just sit back and get a good laugh. I know that many here will say " I don't hate those of another faith, I just hate their faith". God knows our hearts. They don't have to try to convince me.

I am looking forward to our Shiite Muslim girl coming here July 28th. I am anxiously looking forward to developing a relationship with this girl, and then sharing our love and the Gospel. We will have ten months for this girl to see the Gospel lived out in our home. I'm praying for God's will to be done. I'm contending with God for her salvation. What an opportunity for her to go back to an 80% Muslim country, and to share the Gospel of Christ. They are really just Muslim in name only and do not practice their faith.

Our South Korean girl is going home June 12th. She feels like our own kid. We will miss her. We have placed six kids in homes this last school year. We have placed three so far for the up coming school year, not including our girl from Azerbaijan. We hope to place at least ten this year... Lord willing. What a wonderful way to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ huh? Love you brother.

 

[Amy.G]

You'll get no argument from me.

Me neither.

Psalm 51:17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,
A broken and a contrite heart--
These, O God, You will not despise.

 

[webdog]

Just because someone claims to do things in the name of the Lord, does not mean they are truly doing such in the name of the Lord. I believe that other spirits, other than the Holy Spirit, can give them the power to do whatever.... such as cast out spirits etc.

Didn't Jesus say a kingdom divided cannot stand? This was in direct refutation that His miracles were performed due to demonic power. That alone refutes what you are saying.

They are seeking fortune or fame. Didn't the magician in Acts 8 believe? Didn't he seek to do these supernatural acts? Of course. But he didn't have faith/ Holy Spirit indwelling. He was seeking fortune and fame. Even demons believe and fear and tremble. They do not have faith however, nor the Holy Spirit.

You give one isolated instance and claim everyone follows the same pattern. Let me ask you this. Are catholics involved with the sacraments and works based salvation seeking fortune and fame? Modern Jews? Absolutely not! They sincerely believe they can WORK to please God. They are a perfect example of those who are trying to please God...not seek "fortune and fame"...who will be saying "Lord, Lord...".

 

[npetreley]

They sincerely believe they can WORK to please God.

And why is this wrong, again? Seriously, explain what's wrong with the idea of working to please God. While you're at it, though, watch out you don't contradict the free-willer responses in the "Witnesses against you" thread.

 

[Brother Bob]

why do people choose differently.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. To me the Lord is the most beautiful.
Some people pick out an ugly old hag to marry, Me? I found me a good one. :laugh: carry on :thumbs:

 

[webdog]

And why is this wrong, again? Seriously, explain what's wrong with the idea of working to please God. While you're at it, though, watch out you don't contradict the free-willer responses in the "Witnesses against you" thread.

Ephesians 2:8-9.

 

[npetreley]

Ephesians 2:8-9.

Huh. Now I wonder why works don't count, since - according to free-willers - that's inclining oneself toward God? Doesn't God respect that? Or do you think maybe He meant it when He said there's no one who seeks God, no not one?

 

[webdog]

Huh. Now I wonder why works don't count, since - according to free-willers - that's inclining oneself toward God?

No idea what this means.

God respect that?

Obviously not if he says "depart from Me, I never knew you"

Or do you think maybe He meant it when He said there's no one who seeks God, no not one?

Oh, I believe that. I don't believe it in the way you are trying to use it, however. If no one seeks after God, then all of the Scriptures to seek Him are foolishness. It helps when you come across an "as it is written:"...to go back and see what was written.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Didn't Jesus say a kingdom divided cannot stand? This was in direct refutation that His miracles were performed due to demonic power. That alone refutes what you are saying.

You give one isolated instance and claim everyone follows the same pattern. Let me ask you this. Are catholics involved with the sacraments and works based salvation seeking fortune and fame? Modern Jews? Absolutely not! They sincerely believe they can WORK to please God. They are a perfect example of those who are trying to please God...not seek "fortune and fame"...who will be saying "Lord, Lord...".

If you say so web. Jesus was saying that if He was doing these things by a power other than God, (demonic power) then the Kingdom would be divided. In other words He was saying "I'm not dividing the Kingdom". "I do these things by the power of God". That in no way refutes what I said. Try again.

 

[reformedbeliever]

If you want to ignore one isolated instance in the Bible, go ahead web.

You give one isolated instance and claim everyone follows the same pattern. Let me ask you this. Are catholics involved with the sacraments and works based salvation seeking fortune and fame? Modern Jews? Absolutely not! They sincerely believe they can WORK to please God. They are a perfect example of those who are trying to please God...not seek "fortune and fame"...who will be saying "Lord, Lord...". _______________

No... they are trying to base salvation upon works. Are you sure the Catholics will be saying "Lord, Lord"? I will not make that judgemental call myself. I think that many Catholics will be saved the same way I was..... By God's sovereign grace. How pitiful to judge ones salvation based upon their flawed theology web. I'm sorry for you.

 

[webdog]

If you say so web. Jesus was saying that if He was doing these things by a power other than God, (demonic power) then the Kingdom would be divided. In other words He was saying "I'm not dividing the Kingdom". "I do these things by the power of God". That in no way refutes what I said. Try again.

Might be your interpretation of that...but not the correct one

He was clearly saying if He were casting out demons using demonic power, the "kingdom" would be divided. Don't get caught up on the word "kingdom". It's allegorical.

 

[webdog]

If you want to ignore one isolated instance in the Bible, go ahead web.

Who said I ignored it? Sure there are those who do those things for personal benefit only. Then there are those, like my in laws who think by doing those things they are gaining favor with God. I will not base all humankind who ever perishes to that one instance, though.

Are you sure the Catholics will be saying "Lord, Lord"? I will not make that judgemental call myself.

If they base their salvation on "being catholic", absolutely.

I think that many Catholics will be saved the same way I was..... By God's sovereign grace.

I do too...by God's sovereign grace through faith.

How pitiful to judge ones salvation based upon their flawed theology web. I'm sorry for you.

I'm not understanding what you are sorry for. If one believes they are saved by sacraments...and not Christ, it speaks for itself they are not saved. I hope you believe that. Religion doesn't save..."relationship" does.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Who said I ignored it? Sure there are those who do those things for personal benefit only. Then there are those, like my in laws who think by doing those things they are gaining favor with God. I will not base all humankind who ever perishes to that one instance, though.

If they base their salvation on "being catholic", absolutely.

I do too...by God's sovereign grace through faith.

I'm not understanding what you are sorry for. If one believes they are saved by sacraments...and not Christ, it speaks for itself they are not saved. I hope you believe that. Religion doesn't save..."relationship" does.

1. Do you really think they base their salvation upon "being Catholic"?

2. Absolutely.... of course its through faith. And faith is a gift of God, the author and finisher of our faith.

3. Do you really think that all Catholics believe they are saved by sacrements and not Christ? Everyone I have met believe it is by Christ's work that they are saved. They also believe that the sacrements are necessary. They have flawed theology, but if they have faith in Christ, and confess Him as Savior, they are saved. Your flawed theology will not send you to hell web.... so quit judging others salvation based upon their flawed theology. That is God's job, not yours. :wavey:

 

[reformedbeliever]

Might be your interpretation of that...but not the correct one

He was clearly saying if He were casting out demons using demonic power, the "kingdom" would be divided. Don't get caught up on the word "kingdom". It's allegorical.

And that is clearly what I said.