Why do people reject the gospel?

[Brother James]

People reject the Gospel because they are dead (Eph 2) and because they're carnal mind is enmity with God (Rom. 8). It's takes the Grace of God to open their eyes and enable them to believe. The natural man can not understand the things of God neither can he know them (1Cor.2).

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Brother James:
People reject the Gospel because they are dead (Eph 2) and because they're carnal mind is enmity with God (Rom. 8). It's takes the Grace of God to open their eyes and enable them to believe. The natural man can not understand the things of God neither can he know them (1Cor.2).

Amen... and one might add that they love darkness more than light in their fallen, unregenerate condition.

 

[OldRegular]

John Dagg, a 19th Century Baptist says it best, in his Manual of Theology [page 322], regarding the natural man’s inability regarding salvation, as follows:

“Every proposed method of salvation that leaves the issue dependent on human volition is defective. It has always been found that men will not come to Christ for life. The Gospel is preached to every creature; but all, with one consent, ask to be excused. The will of man must be changed; and this change the will cannot itself effect. Divine grace must here interpose. Unless God works in the sinner to will and to do, salvation is impossible.”

 

[bjonson]

Well, a plain reading of that text says God is the One blinding. I believe that. He is the One who must open spiritual eyes.

Remember the walk to Emmaus?

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Tom Butler:
No, Tim, that's not what Isaiah 6 says. To paraphrase, God told Isaiah to preach, but they wouldn't listen. The reason they wouldn't listen is that he would blind them, harden them and dull their hearing. God did not say they would not believe so he's blind, harden and dull. I repeat, this is beyond my understanding, but it's there.

In the last sentence of your post you said Calvinists believe that people will or will not be saved regardless of what man does. You know something. I'm a Calvinist and I don't believe that,and no Calvinist that I have ever know believes that.

I'm continually amazed that as much debate as we have on this board about Calvinism and Arminianism, that the non-Calvinists repeatedly misrepresent Calvinist views. I'm also amazed that so many people filter scripture through their own theology, instead of letting the scripture drive their theology.
Oh, well, I guess if we all saw things the same way, this board would be unnecessary.


Tom B

Actually Tom those verses are repeated serveral times in the NT and some say "because you would not believe" Check it out for yourself. That is taking the whole gospel not picking and choosing.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Brother James:
People reject the Gospel because they are dead (Eph 2) and because they're carnal mind is enmity with God (Rom. 8). It's takes the Grace of God to open their eyes and enable them to believe. The natural man can not understand the things of God neither can he know them (1Cor.2).

Yep and those are all choices, yet God gives all the oppertunity too repent. Dead means they can do no spiritual good not that they can't reconize God. Yes they are led by a carnal mind but not unable too respond to the gospel. And yes the natural man cannot understand the things of God. The spiritual things that come from a relationship with HIm. However they can understand from the power of the gospel that Christ died for them. As many did in the Bible, but knowing this walked away from Christ of their own choice. It's really quite simple if you calvinist would quite mucking up the gospel.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother James:
People reject the Gospel because they are dead (Eph 2) and because they're carnal mind is enmity with God (Rom. 8). It's takes the Grace of God to open their eyes and enable them to believe. The natural man can not understand the things of God neither can he know them (1Cor.2).

Yep and those are all choices, yet God gives all the oppertunity too repent.</font>[/QUOTE] Good so far...

Dead means they can do no spiritual good not that they can't reconize God. Yes they are led by a carnal mind

Very good so far...

but not unable too respond to the gospel.

Ah well... it was looking too good.

You just said that man could do no spiritual good that God would recognize... yet here you calim they aren't "unable to respond to the gospel". Unless there is some strange sense in which you could consider response to the gospel "not good" then the result is a position that contradicts both itself and the scriptures.

And yes the natural man cannot understand the things of God. The spiritual things that come from a relationship with HIm. However they can understand from the power of the gospel that Christ died for them. As many did in the Bible, but knowing this walked away from Christ of their own choice.

That would rightly be called an unrighteous or evil choice... something that man is fully capable of with no help or prompting from God whatsoever. The problem isn't if or why men choose wrongly...

The disagreement comes in when we try to ultimately account for the final "Why" when we keep asking "why" until we get to the prime cause.

It's really quite simple if you calvinist would quite mucking up the gospel.

They aren't. The gospel is that man is a depraved sinner. Sin permeates his entire being in such a way that even his "good" works are vain, self-worshipping, self-glorifying attempts at self-justification.

You had it right earlier when you said that the natural man can't do any spiritual good that God would recognize. He continually chooses himself and evil over the God revealed in scripture and nature.

It is his nature to do so. The thing that must preceed all human experience in salvation is that God must miraculously change and resurrect that person's spirit so that spiritual eyes that were blind, see, and spiritual ears that were deaf, hear.

 

[DeadMan]

Although I tend to think it may be a matter of what the person being reached our to sees like certain worship practices that certain denominations engage in, I'll go ahead and take the Calvinist stance and say it is a simple matter of predestination. Keep in mind, however, sometimes the person we try to reach has a delayed reaction and responds some time down the road. I have personally seen this happen.

 

[Timtoolman]

1 You can't prove total inability biblically but you can prove that they could accept on thier own as God blinded and hide the truth from them so they mignt not believe. After they had already rejected the working of the Holy Spirit and refused to repent.
See Scott you are taking a man's definition and not the bibles.spiritually dead does not mean totally unable.. Look up good and see that the bible does indeed say man can do good.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
1 You can't prove total inability biblically

I didn't try.

I don't care for that terminology myself and don't think it accurately reflects the situation without a whole book of qualifying explanations.

You nailed it earlier when you said that man could do no good that God would recognize.

Man has plenty of ability to choose. He lacks any God satisfying goodness... and that includes the "good will" to have faith without first being changed.

but you can prove that they could accept on thier own as God blinded and hide the truth from them so they mignt not believe.

Huh?

After they had already rejected the working of the Holy Spirit and refused to repent.

OK maybe I get you. But you are dealing with the other side of the equation now.

Men do reject God. They do so because they are unrighteous, self-loving, evil in their heart, etc, etc, etc. Man's natural condition is that of a sinner- a rebel against God.

The question is- from that starting point (a sinner) what is the "first" act in his salvation and who performs that act. Is it his "good decision" that is critical or is it an act of pure grace on the part of God to change the man's nature so that he now possesses the goodness to make the right decision?

See Scott you are taking a man's definition and not the bibles.

No I am not. I am not even sure how you can justify such a statement.

spiritually dead does not mean totally unable..

Actually, that is a man's definition. To say that "dead" does not imply a nature that is completely separate from "alive".

Dead ultimately means separated. Use the analogy of a bridge over a ravine. God built the bridge. He then took that blind/deaf/hopelessly lost person and miraculously gave them the senses needed to safely cross the bridge.

Look up good and see that the bible does indeed say man can do good.

Why should I attempt to prove your point for you?

Man does "good" as viewed by man. To God our righteousness is dirty rags.

The rich young ruler tried to self-justify by his good works and went away sad when he found that it wasn't good enough.

 

[Timtoolman]

 

[Timtoolman]

Well Scott I think that man accepting the work of Christ would be foolish to claim he did anything good. The bible tells us that God did all the work that man may believe. Lets see what He did. Sent the Christ, sent the Holy Spirit, gave us His word. And Nature also that cries out His glory. Now this is my thinking. If God had not sent the savior then rather I believe in God or not would make no difference. I could not for did I will God to provide salvation for me. He did it of His own pleasure. God has laid out in His word that man must repent, in fact He calls all men everywhere to repent. If I ran around at christmas time and declared that the work of rasing my arm to accept the gifts, or even the work of opening the presents gave me the glory for the gifts. Made it so I earned them would not everyo0ne say I was crazy?
I don't have all the answers, God is far beyond my understanding but I do see a loving, gracouis, mercyful God that desires that none should perish. He desires a relationship with us, not so much that He needs one with us, but we need one with Him. If calvinism is true, and as I try to apply it while reading the Bible I get this sesnse of "what am I doing" Everything
is settled and all that I do and the Bible commmands me is useless and worthless. God has wasted His time in writing the Bible because all is settled. why Pray, why wittness, why try to live a holy life. All our actions are pre determind.
Men does good as viewed by God too, however our good compared to Christ's is as filthy raggs. It is comparing it too the Christ.
There are many verses that tell men doing good or how to do good. Unregenerated men.I agree with your def. of dead being seperate. that is refreshing. Most calvinist try to relate it to a physical death.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
Well Scott I think that man accepting the work of Christ would be foolish to claim he did anything good.

If you had a job offer on the table that promised you a future reward but that your current pay and lifestyle might be reduced... you would be expected to be more disciplined and work harder... and that the number one requirement was that you accepted as a legitimate duty to put the employer in front of yourself. What if that new company told you that everything you ever believed about work, fairness, "rights", and values was ill-founded and ultimately false?

Would that be a qualitative choice?

If you had the "faith" to believe in that future reward, would your choice not reflect your personal wisdom and merit?

Of course it would. And that is basically the offer of the gospel. Man in his sin nature isn't interested in the self-denying deal that God has to offer. It is only when God opens his eyes...

The bible tells us that God did all the work that man may believe.

Cite those scriptures and let's discuss them in light of their own context and the context of the whole of scripture.

Beforehand, let us agree that any interpretation we accept cannot cause those scriptures to become contradictions to direct statements elsewhere in the Bible.

God has laid out in His word that man must repent, in fact He calls all men everywhere to repent.

Yes... and that still doesn't answer the question of what ultimately causes one man to be good enough to repent while another remains unrighteous of his own accord.

If I ran around at christmas time and declared that the work of rasing my arm to accept the gifts, or even the work of opening the presents gave me the glory for the gifts.

That is a very poor analogy of salvation or repentance.

A better analogy would be if you were at your family gathering with all your gifts lined up... and in comes someone you don't know except for what he has told you in a letter. He makes you an offer of a gift... but to get it, you have to be willing to turn your back on all the others.

You can say many things about such a choice... but you can't say that it is made without respect to the receiver's goodness, wisdom, intelligence, study, etc.

Made it so I earned them would not everyo0ne say I was crazy?

If you make a "choice" then that choice lies at the end of a process of thought (work) that began with something. I am saying that that something was regeneration/election. God changes the nature so that the goodness to choose righteously exists in the man.

If calvinism is true, and as I try to apply it while reading the Bible I get this sesnse of "what am I doing"

Tim, With loving respect, I don't think you have a correct conception of what calvinism is. Honestly, I don't.

Everything
is settled and all that I do and the Bible commmands me is useless and worthless.

That is a complete misconception. The doctrines of grace do not deny man's will. It does not deny the necessity of obedience and submission. In fact, it provides the real scriptural basis for those things. If the greatest act of human obedience can be made without God's initiation... then why do you need God to do good now? If you could make a decision satisfactory to Him of your own natural goodness concerning the gospel... then why exactly would you think you need the Holy Spirit to sanctify you now?

why Pray, why wittness, why try to live a holy life. All our actions are pre determind.

Notably, some of the greatest men of God were calvinists- Spurgeon, Edwards, Knox, Gill,...

Men does good as viewed by God too, however our good compared to Christ's is as filthy raggs. It is comparing it too the Christ.

This contradicts what you correctly said before.

There are many verses that tell men doing good or how to do good. Unregenerated men.

Cite them and we can discuss them... I am willing to predict that none of them will be counted by God as salvific righteousness... which is what the "good choice" you require would be.

I agree with your def. of dead being seperate. that is refreshing. Most calvinist try to relate it to a physical death.

It does parallel physical death.

A physically dead person isn't by necessity completely different from that same person when alive. If there was a means of motivation, that heart could beat and arms could rise. But there is no life. Life must be given back... not taken. It is only after being given the GIFT of life that the body can do living things.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
Look up good and see that the bible does indeed say man can do good.

9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one." [c]

Romans 3:9-12

 

[Timtoolman]

Scott: If you had a job offer on the table that promised you a future reward but that your current pay and lifestyle might be reduced... you would be expected to be more disciplined and work harder... and that the number one requirement was that you accepted as a legitimate duty to put the employer in front of yourself. What if that new company told you that everything you ever believed about work, fairness, "rights", and values was ill-founded and ultimately false?

Timtoolman: here is one contradiction after another! Now you are saying as a Calvinist that men who accept Christ (irresistible grace taught by Calvinist) that they now reason within themselves whether it is worth it to accept that gift or not?! That is my argument. Yours Is the person has NO CHOICE. He is overwhelmed or irresistibly drawn. Yes I believe men can do that. The rich man counted the cost and walked away. He did not want to give up his material wealth. I see this back up by life everyday almost as people clearly under conviction do not want to give up some part of the world. That again is free will.

Scott: Of course it would. And that is basically the offer of the gospel. Man in his sin nature isn't interested in the self-denying deal that God has to offer. It is only when God opens his eyes...

Timtoolman: actually God blinds them after they have decided not to believe. If they cannot believe without Christ, or being regenerated first, then why would God even blind them? Contradiction again!

Scott: The bible tells us that God did all the work that man may believe.
________________________________________
Cite those scriptures and let's discuss them in light of their own context and the context of the whole of scripture.

Beforehand, let us agree that any interpretation we accept cannot cause those scriptures to become contradictions to direct statements elsewhere in the Bible.


Timtoolman: If I have to go back to such elementary stage as to the conviction of the Holy Spirit, Power of the Word, Christ’s death on the cross and that nature itself declares God glory then you need to read up on your Bible before you enter into a discussion with me. Those are all Bible principles. Which ones do you NOT agree with?!

Scott: Yes... and that still doesn't answer the question of what ultimately causes one man to be good enough to repent while another remains unrighteous of his own accord.

Timtoolman:Well I gave bible illustrations which you don’t like so what more can I do. Two were the rich man and the disciples who followed Christ but left. This is proof of free will not proof for Calvinism. I believe each man has different reason why. They do not want to give some part of the world to make God lord of their life. Again one may say I will not give up the money, one may say the way seems too rough, some may say that I have fields and barns to attend too. Yet others who have the same material possessions choose to follow Christ. Quite simple lts free will man. Right before you eyes! Yet someone has blinded Calvinist to this simple truth.


Scott: That is a very poor analogy of salvation or repentance.

A better analogy would be if you were at your family gathering with all your gifts lined up... and in comes someone you don't know except for what he has told you in a letter. He makes you an offer of a gift... but to get it, you have to be willing to turn your back on all the others.

You can say many things about such a choice... but you can't say that it is made without respect to the receiver's goodness, wisdom, intelligence, study, etc.

Timtoolman: So your analogy is not a gift at all. If there are things attach to it then it is not a gift. Now we have a contradiction again. Bible calls it a gift yet you say it isn’t. Which way should I go, Bible or Scott?! I would say that when I was convicted it was a conviction that I was a sinner who needed the work of Christ on the cross. I really did not have the knowledge to know what all it would cost me. My conscious knew that I was a sinner and had many sins. But I really did not know that it could cost me my job, my friends, my life but I yielded to the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Not a whole a lot of deep theological debate going on in my mind. No, the gift was offered and given as a gift. I accepted it as one.


Scott: If you make a "choice" then that choice lies at the end of a process of thought (work) that began with something. I am saying that that something was regeneration/election. God changes the nature so that the goodness to choose righteously exists in the man.

Timtoolman: And I can make with this type of illogical thought process that every Calvinist alive has done some work to be saved. Fell on his knees. Went forward during a message, cried out to God, WAS BREATHING while accepting salvation. Somewhere EVERY Calvinist by their own def. has performed some type of work for their salvation. Give me your testimony of how you came to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and I will demonstrate for you.

Scott: Tim, With loving respect, I don't think you have a correct conception of what Calvinism is. Honestly, I don't.

Timtoolman: I realize there are as many different types of Calvinism as there are animals so if I am wrong in your situation let me know where, don’t just say so. I have been debating Calvinist for over 2 years now so I am only going by what they say.


Scott: That is a complete misconception. The doctrines of grace do not deny man's will. It does not deny the necessity of obedience and submission. In fact, it provides the real scriptural basis for those things. If the greatest act of human obedience can be made without God's initiation... then why do you need God to do good now? If you could make a decision satisfactory to Him of your own natural goodness concerning the gospel... then why exactly would you think you need the Holy Spirit to sanctify you now?

Timtoolman: right back atcha with the misconception. We do not claim choice as a work that gets us to heaven. We realize that God has already done the work on the Cross. It is done for all eternity and rather I accept it or not or anyone else for that matter it is still done. Finished.
The greatest act of man’s obedience is not accepting Christ it is the work of the Holy Spirit. I believe God’s Spirit convicts, we can choose Him lord of our life or not. Yet it is not that choice or our will that makes us able to follow through with that. We choose whom we will server this day (as the bibles tells us too) then the Holy Spirit takes over and makes or enables us to live the life of a follower of Christ. That is a relationship.

Scott: and while these where great men they were not perfect. There are many who do not follow calvin’s teaching also. Many more. And I have read, long ago, much of Spurgeons writings and I find him not going as far as Calvinist do today and sometimes contradicting himself. Which being a man this happens. It is a difficult subject and has been debated for years with many not following the extreme postitions of Calvinism. You do well to distant yourself from Johnp. He is one person I would not want to claim any more then I would want to claim Hitler as a Baptist.


Scott: This contradicts what you correctly said before.

Timtoolman: How so Scott? If I said my son as a 5 year old is a great ballplayer but compared to Michael Jordon he has no game is that a contradiction. Likewise man can do good but compared to Christ who is Holy, without one sin and does good all the time, man’s goodness looks like filthy rags.

Scott: There are many verses that tell men doing good or how to do good. Unregenerated men.
________________________________________
Cite them and we can discuss them... I am willing to predict that none of them will be counted by God as salvific righteousness... which is what the "good choice" you require would be.

Timtoolman: no they are not counted toward salvation. Again nothing is counted toward salvation. IT is finished already done. It is those that claim some type of work and believe it to be a work unto salvation are the ones whose faith is not on God. I do not believe my choice had any merit or credit toward salvation. No more then you would believe that walking forward in church did or falling to your knees for prayer for forgiveness. It is a Calvinist straw man that truthfully has never really held any truth.

Scott: It does parallel physical death.

Timtoolman: only in the extent that it separates us from fellowship with God. It does not mean that man does not know the existence of God or that God does not know the existence of men who are not saved. Man can acknowledge God as did Adam and Eve after the fall. They talked to God, understood Him and knew who He was. They responded to Him by hiding. So what other part of death do you want to apply that is scriptural to spiritual death?

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
Scott: If you had a job offer on the table that promised you a future reward but that your current pay and lifestyle might be reduced... you would be expected to be more disciplined and work harder... and that the number one requirement was that you accepted as a legitimate duty to put the employer in front of yourself. What if that new company told you that everything you ever believed about work, fairness, "rights", and values was ill-founded and ultimately false?

Timtoolman: here is one contradiction after another! Now you are saying as a Calvinist that men who accept Christ (irresistible grace taught by Calvinist) that they now reason within themselves whether it is worth it to accept that gift or not?! That is my argument.

Correct. That was what I was illustrating along with the FACT that your belief introduces the "choosers" merit into the equation.

Yours Is the person has NO CHOICE.

Not true. You are better than that Tim. I hope you are actually reading what I write instead of following the pattern of most anti-calvinists... assigning what you believe about calvinists in the place of what we actually believe and assert.

Man does have real choices... and he makes those choices in a way that is completely consistent with his nature.

He is overwhelmed or irresistibly drawn.

Actually this answers a very simple question that Me4Him refuses to answer: Can man thwart the perfect will of God?

If no then by necessity when God elects a person before time began to salvation... that person will ultimately be saved... by grace... through faith.

Yes I believe men can do that. The rich man counted the cost and walked away. He did not want to give up his material wealth. I see this back up by life everyday almost as people clearly under conviction do not want to give up some part of the world. That again is free will.

Absolutely. Did you read my posts? I intimate the same thing.

Our disagreement isn't much if any over why men go to hell in unbelief... it is the question of why some believe unto salvation.

Timtoolman: actually God blinds them after they have decided not to believe.

Nope. They are blind because of sin.

Israel was blinded so that redemption might come to the gentiles but even then it was a corporate blinding to their messiah and not an individual blinding. This is clear from the context.

You are right about one thing though. Sinners do reject God's revelation of Himself.

If they cannot believe without Christ, or being regenerated first, then why would God even blind them? Contradiction again!

A contradiction with what you believe... not what scripture says.

Scott: The bible tells us that God did all the work that man may believe.

Your statement. Not mine.
________________________________________

Cite those scriptures and let's discuss them in light of their own context and the context of the whole of scripture.

Beforehand, let us agree that any interpretation we accept cannot cause those scriptures to become contradictions to direct statements elsewhere in the Bible.


Timtoolman: If I have to go back to such elementary stage as to the conviction of the Holy Spirit, Power of the Word, Christ’s death on the cross and that nature itself declares God glory then you need to read up on your Bible before you enter into a discussion with me.

I don't think I made an unreasonable request. You claimed that scripture supports you. I asked you to cite some scripture. Why engage in this evasion? You said that God did all the work so that man "may" believe.

I believe that God did all the work to accomplish a plan of redemption.

Those are all Bible principles. Which ones do you NOT agree with?!

The one that makes salvation ultimately, primarily dependent on a choice by man.... a choice that must be characterized as good and meritorious.

Scott: Yes... and that still doesn't answer the question of what ultimately causes one man to be good enough to repent while another remains unrighteous of his own accord.

Timtoolman:Well I gave bible illustrations which you don’t like so what more can I do.

The illustrations don't answer the question. They don't tell us why.

Two were the rich man and the disciples who followed Christ but left. This is proof of free will not proof for Calvinism.

When have I argued that men do not or in fact WILL NOT choose unrighteousness if left to their own volition.

Jesus tells us why those who stayed did so... because the Father gave them to Him... not because they made independent good choices. God chose them FIRST... not the other way around.

I believe each man has different reason why. They do not want to give some part of the world to make God lord of their life. Again one may say I will not give up the money, one may say the way seems too rough, some may say that I have fields and barns to attend too. Yet others who have the same material possessions choose to follow Christ. Quite simple lts free will man. Right before you eyes! Yet someone has blinded Calvinist to this simple truth.

Who blinded you to the simple, consistent words of my posts for about 6 years on this forum?

Man is responsible. That is the calvinist position. That is my position. Is that clear enough for you? Man chooses to sin.

BUT THAT ISN'T THE QUESTION TO BE ANSWERED.

The question is why do some believe... Where does the "good" to believe come from?

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Timtoolman:
Look up good and see that the bible does indeed say man can do good.

9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one." [c]

Romans 3:9-12 </font>[/QUOTE]Gen 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart where continuelly evil.

So is this in contrast to the fact that man's thoughts and actions where no always "continuelly wicked or evil" hmmmmm?

Lam. 3:26 It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the Lord.

Of course this is not int he calvinist bible is it? It should read that "He should sit and wait quietly for the election of God"

That was a little off subject came across it and liked it.

Prov 13:22
A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children: and the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just.

Prov 17:22
A merry heart doeth good like a medicine, but a broken spirit drieth the bones.

Rom2:10
But glory and honor, and peace to everyman that worketh good, to the Jew first and also to the gentile.

I Peter 2:18 Servants be subject to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the forward.

Luke 6:33
And if you do good to them that do good to you, what thank have you? FOR SINNERS DO EVEN THE SAME.

Roms 16:18
For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but tgheir own belley: and by good words and fair speeches deceive ghe hearts of the simple.

Gen. 26:29
That thou wilt do us no hurt, as we have not touched thee, and as we have not done unto thee nothing but GOOD, and have sent thee away in peace: thou art now the blessed of the Lord.

God sees even the wicked can do good...
Gen 31:24
And God came to Laban the Syrian in a dream by night,and said unto him. Take heed that thou speak not too Jacob either GOOD or BAD.


Compared to Christ, yes all our rightouesness is as filthy rags.

 

[Scott J]

Scott: That is a very poor analogy of salvation or repentance.

A better analogy would be if you were at your family gathering with all your gifts lined up... and in comes someone you don't know except for what he has told you in a letter. He makes you an offer of a gift... but to get it, you have to be willing to turn your back on all the others.

You can say many things about such a choice... but you can't say that it is made without respect to the receiver's goodness, wisdom, intelligence, study, etc.

Timtoolman: So your analogy is not a gift at all. If there are things attach to it then it is not a gift. Now we have a contradiction again.[/quote][/qb]Whoa... Are you saying that repentance does not involve "things attached to it"... such as a willingness to give up sin and follow Christ?

Yes it is a gift... a gift that calls a person to give up other "gifts".

The "gift" offerings are mutually exclusive. You can't choose sin/world/self and also repentance/forgiveness/Christ. One or the other must be the Master.

Bible calls it a gift yet you say it isn’t.

That is untrue Tim. You should apologize for mischaracterizing my statement like that. I said it was a choice between gifts... which is pretty much what you've been arguing. The difference is that you think somehow the saved figure out to choose the seemingly less attractive gift with great promise while I say that God miraculously instills the good will and "sight" in us beforehand.

Which way should I go, Bible or Scott?!

False dichotomy in this case.

I would say that when I was convicted it was a conviction that I was a sinner who needed the work of Christ on the cross. I really did not have the knowledge to know what all it would cost me. My conscious knew that I was a sinner and had many sins. But I really did not know that it could cost me my job, my friends, my life but I yielded to the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Not a whole a lot of deep theological debate going on in my mind. No, the gift was offered and given as a gift. I accepted it as one.

You were first given the will... the sight to see that gift as desirable. Many were offered the same gift. Many knew that their lives were filled with sin... and turned away.

Now why did they do what they did while you did what you did? Are you better than they? Not according to Paul (Romans 3).

Scott: If you make a "choice" then that choice lies at the end of a process of thought (work) that began with something. I am saying that that something was regeneration/election. God changes the nature so that the goodness to choose righteously exists in the man.

Timtoolman: And I can make with this type of illogical thought process that every Calvinist alive has done some work to be saved.

You will have to prove it illogical... your declarations fall well short of proof.

But to the point, God does a work in us first... that work manifests itself in the "acts/choices" of faith and belief.

Where you have a human process of deliberation... I place a divine miracle.

Fell on his knees. Went forward during a message, cried out to God, WAS BREATHING while accepting salvation. Somewhere EVERY Calvinist by their own def. has performed some type of work for their salvation.

Nope. Every saved person has manifested through repentance and faith the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit though.

Give me your testimony of how you came to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and I will demonstrate for you.

I heard the gospel... and it wasn't nearly the first time. But God acted on me. I had a conviction and desire where there had been none before... then submitted and accepted in the faith of a child.

I have been debating Calvinist for over 2 years now so I am only going by what they say.

I don't know how typical I am of calvinists everywhere... I seem to be pretty consistent with most of the ones here.

Timtoolman: right back atcha with the misconception. We do not claim choice as a work that gets us to heaven.

But you do Tim... you won't admit it but when you assign the critical factor in an individual's salvation to their independent, reasoned good choice... that is a work. I know that it is tempting to try to change the definition so that this act isn't work... but it still is by any legitimate treatment.

We realize that God has already done the work on the Cross. It is done for all eternity and rather I accept it or not or anyone else for that matter it is still done.

If it isn't functional until you make a choice... then it is NOT finished. It is always open-ended and dependent on someone's good choice to believe.

The greatest act of man’s obedience is not accepting Christ it is the work of the Holy Spirit.

The work of the Holy Spirit isn't an act of man's obedience.

I believe God’s Spirit convicts, we can choose Him lord of our life or not.

You still make the critical thing in salvation human good will. You say the offer is there but completely ineffectual til the magic potion of man's good choice is applied.

You work in cars so you probably know that some adhesives activate with a catalyst. The catalyst isn't the largest part... it isn't even the part that does the bonding... but it is the most critical part. Without the catalyst, the glue is worthless.

I believe that regeneration is the catalyst. You seem to be arguing that a sinner's good choice is the catalyst.

Yet it is not that choice or our will that makes us able to follow through with that. We choose whom we will server this day (as the bibles tells us too) then the Holy Spirit takes over and makes or enables us to live the life of a follower of Christ. That is a relationship.

Why do you believe that? If you were good enough to make that initial good decision then why aren't you good enough to sanctify yourself. You have the Bible. Why do you need the Holy Spirit working within you since the good needed to make correct spiritual choices is already there?

You do well to distant yourself from Johnp. He is one person I would not want to claim any more then I would want to claim Hitler as a Baptist.

I can only speak for myself Tim. However, John appears to me to have a better biblical basis for what he believes than most of his opponents here.

Scott: This contradicts what you correctly said before.

Timtoolman: How so Scott?

Because you correctly said before that man could not do any good that God would recognize. He is the only standard of good that counts.

I do not believe my choice had any merit or credit toward salvation.

Then why do you believe it was the catalyst in your salvation rather than God being the initiator?

No more then you would believe that walking forward in church did or falling to your knees for prayer for forgiveness. It is a Calvinist straw man that truthfully has never really held any truth.

You haven't demonstrated that it is a straw man... just because your position cannot provide a biblical answer isn't a reason to disqualify the question.

You are wrong about the actions associated with salvation. Repentance and faith are absolutely essential as are outward indications.

Scott: It does parallel physical death.

Tim: So what other part of death do you want to apply that is scriptural to spiritual death?

I gave that to you Tim. You are invited to take my comment line by line and answer.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Timtoolman:
Look up good and see that the bible does indeed say man can do good.

9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one." [c]

Romans 3:9-12 </font>[/QUOTE]Gen 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart where continuelly evil.

So is this in contrast to the fact that man's thoughts and actions where no always "continuelly wicked or evil" hmmmmm?

Lam. 3:26 It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the Lord.

Of course this is not int he calvinist bible is it? It should read that "He should sit and wait quietly for the election of God"

That was a little off subject came across it and liked it.

Prov 13:22
A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children: and the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just.

Prov 17:22
A merry heart doeth good like a medicine, but a broken spirit drieth the bones.

Rom2:10
But glory and honor, and peace to everyman that worketh good, to the Jew first and also to the gentile.

I Peter 2:18 Servants be subject to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the forward.

Luke 6:33
And if you do good to them that do good to you, what thank have you? FOR SINNERS DO EVEN THE SAME.

Roms 16:18
For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but tgheir own belley: and by good words and fair speeches deceive ghe hearts of the simple.

Gen. 26:29
That thou wilt do us no hurt, as we have not touched thee, and as we have not done unto thee nothing but GOOD, and have sent thee away in peace: thou art now the blessed of the Lord.

God sees even the wicked can do good...
Gen 31:24
And God came to Laban the Syrian in a dream by night,and said unto him. Take heed that thou speak not too Jacob either GOOD or BAD.


Compared to Christ, yes all our rightouesness is as filthy rags. </font>[/QUOTE]Tim, Rather than answer these individually as others may do... or I may do later, I just wanted to comment that most of these passages have been stripped of their context.

Romans 2 in context for instance does not help your cause. It is only when you strip it of context that you find things that you can manipulate.

Romans 2 is part of a 2 and half chapter indictment of all men as sinners culminating with Romans 3:9-12.

You can't ignore the context just because it is inconvenient to your position.

 

[Timtoolman]

Scott: Correct. That was what I was illustrating along with the FACT that your belief introduces the "choosers" merit into the equation.

Timtoolman: And as I said before choice is not salvation. Salvation is the gift finished on the cross. Accepting the gift is not a work. I will absolutely not allow Calvinist to step outside the realm of logic and terms too make their theology. On this pt we will never agree. It’s your Calvinist logic, that no one else will even consider, that you hang you belief. It defies all logic honesty. This pt is closed.

Scott: Not true. You are better than that Tim. I hope you are actually reading what I write instead of following the pattern of most anti-Calvinists... assigning what you believe about Calvinists in the place of what we actually believe and assert.

Man does have real choices... and he makes those choices in a way that is completely consistent with his nature.


Timtoolman: This actually shows me that I am not misrepresenting you it’s just that you can’t seem to understand that the words you say mean something and I try to go by there meanings. Now if you say man, correct me if I have “miss-represented” you, according to his nature cannot choose Christ then you are saying man does not have choice. God has made it so only a few can choose Him and the rest can only choose hell. That is like saying there is an apple pie and peach pie on the table. You have free will pick the one you want. Then you take the peach pie and hide it. Where is the choice? However God has given man a choice. That is His sovereignty. He did not give him many choices, a bunch or different. Just two believe and live or don’t and die. That is God laying down the rules.

Lam 3:26 says it is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the Lord. If the Calvinistic doctrine of total depravity is true then all one can do is hope that he is the subject of unconditional election.

Acts 16:30-31
And he brought them out, and said, sirs, what must I do to be saved?

And they said believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved

Now the Calvinist would say, it is good that a man should both hope and wait quietly for the salvation of the Lord. That is a big difference, in Calvinist one hopes that one may be of the elect. The bible says a sinner believes and is saved.

Scott: Actually this answers a very simple question that Me4Him refuses to answer: Can man thwart the perfect will of God?

T:imtoolman:That is not that simple. Are you living in God’s perfect will? I can go along with the doctrine of decreed and desired will in this issue. God has a decreed will that will happen. He has a desired will that does not always come about. However ultimately it works out I believe God’s will will be done. My example I like is that Moses was ordered to speak to the rock to bring forth water. God’s will….for Moses to SPEAK to the rock. Moses struck the rock which was against Gods will but what was the result. Water came from the rock. That was God’s will, although Moses did not obey God, God’s will was still done.

Scott: Our disagreement isn't much if any over why men go to hell in unbelief... it is the question of why some believe unto salvation.

Timtoolman: Yes Scott and if we were too meet I have not doubt we would get along fine agreeing on what we do agree on. I just see it plainly how man chooses by the conviction of the Holy Spirit, who I believes guides too truth, but does not force anyone to follow that truth. Just reveals it.

Scott: Nope. They are blind because of sin.

Timtoolman: nope, you are dead wrong, Bible says in each instance including Pharaoh that they harden or did not believe first.

Scott: If they cannot believe without Christ, or being regenerated first, then why would God even blind them? Contradiction again!
________________________________________
A contradiction with what you believe... not what scripture says.

Timtoolman: the proof is on you to come up with. I say man can respond to the gospel and you say they can’t because of their nature. Yet you say God blinds them when their nature already makes it impossible to believe. According to your theology. It’s not making sense Scott.

Scott: Scott: The bible tells us that God did all the work that man may believe.
________________________________________
Your statement. Not mine.

Timtoolman: actually it is not my statement but the Bible. Do I need to look that one up for you?

Will answer rest later, going to dinner with the wife. You do have some good questions coming up and I am glad too answer them. Later Scott.