Why Do The Elect Need to Be Persuaded?

[SavedByGrace]

Why Do The Elect Need to Be Persuaded?

The “Reformed/Calvinists” teach, that God has from eternity past, before the foundation of the world, “elected” some to eternal life, while damning the rest of the human race to eternal punishment. These “elect” have been “chosen” in Jesus Christ, and they WILL come to faith in the Lord. God has so “Enabled” their “will”, that they cannot “reject” His “Saving Grace”, and WILL be saved.

IF, this teaching is Biblical, then why do we read, for example, in the context of salvation, Paul say in 2 Corinthians chapter 5, “Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we PERSUADE men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences” (verse 11)? The word “persuade” means, “to move by argument, entreaty, or expostulation to a belief, position, or course of action. To plead with”. IF, the “men” here means only the “elect”, who WILL come to Saving Faith in Jesus Christ, then WHY do these need to be PLEADED with? Not only so, but Paul goes on to say, “Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were PLEADING (παρακᾰλέω, invite, appeal to, encourage, exhort) through us: we implore (δέομαι, long for, beg) you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God” (verse 20).

It is ABSURD that those who have been PREDESTINED before the foundation of the world, to be the ELECT of God, who WILL come to Jesus for salvation, because God has to DETERMINED it, should be PLEADED with, and APPEALED to, and EXHORTED, and BEGGED, to be “RECONCILED” with God.

In Luke 13:24, Jesus Himself says, “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able”. The Greek verb used here, “ἀγωνίζομαι”, for CONTENDING, FIGHTING, STRUGGLE. Or, as the Christian Standard Bible reads, “Make every effort”.

This language shows beyond any doubt, to those who don’t have a theological bent, that both Paul and Jesus Christ are speaking to the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, and NOT only the ELECT! The ELECT have no FREE WILL of their own, and really have NO SAY in whether they are saved or not, as God has already DETERMINED this for them, even before the world was Created. So we are told by the “Reformed/Calvinists”.

But, the truth is, that the Infallible Word of God, the Holy Bible, is AGAINST the FALSE teaching known as ELECTION to salvation, which is supposed to be UNCONDITIONAL!

 

[Iconoclast]

Why Do The Elect Need to Be Persuaded?

The “Reformed/Calvinists” teach, that God has from eternity past, before the foundation of the world, “elected” some to eternal life, while damning the rest of the human race to eternal punishment. These “elect” have been “chosen” in Jesus Christ, and they WILL come to faith in the Lord. God has so “Enabled” their “will”, that they cannot “reject” His “Saving Grace”, and WILL be saved.

IF, this teaching is Biblical, then why do we read, for example, in the context of salvation, Paul say in 2 Corinthians chapter 5, “Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we PERSUADE men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences” (verse 11)? The word “persuade” means, “to move by argument, entreaty, or expostulation to a belief, position, or course of action. To plead with”. IF, the “men” here means only the “elect”, who WILL come to Saving Faith in Jesus Christ, then WHY do these need to be PLEADED with? Not only so, but Paul goes on to say, “Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were PLEADING (παρακᾰλέω, invite, appeal to, encourage, exhort) through us: we implore (δέομαι, long for, beg) you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God” (verse 20).

It is ABSURD that those who have been PREDESTINED before the foundation of the world, to be the ELECT of God, who WILL come to Jesus for salvation, because God has to DETERMINED it, should be PLEADED with, and APPEALED to, and EXHORTED, and BEGGED, to be “RECONCILED” with God.

In Luke 13:24, Jesus Himself says, “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able”. The Greek verb used here, “ἀγωνίζομαι”, for CONTENDING, FIGHTING, STRUGGLE. Or, as the Christian Standard Bible reads, “Make every effort”.

This language shows beyond any doubt, to those who don’t have a theological bent, that both Paul and Jesus Christ are speaking to the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, and NOT only the ELECT! The ELECT have no FREE WILL of their own, and really have NO SAY in whether they are saved or not, as God has already DETERMINED this for them, even before the world was Created. So we are told by the “Reformed/Calvinists”.

But, the truth is, that the Infallible Word of God, the Holy Bible, is AGAINST the FALSE teaching known as ELECTION to salvation, which is supposed to be UNCONDITIONAL!

Hello SBG
The error is coming from your keyboard.
God has elected a multitude of sinners and passed over the rest.
Not only has God elected these persons, but He has ordained the means of grace...prayer,preaching,and teaching accompanied by the work of the Spirit. Jesus seeks and saves each and every lost sheep.lk19:10
Jn6;37-44.
He is not willing that any one of them perish.He saves all the Father gives to Him.
We did not plan it.God did.He clearly revealed it in scripture.
We believe those verses.Do you?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Hello SBG
The error is coming from your keyboard.
God has elected a multitude of sinners and passed over the rest.
Not only has God elected these persons, but He has ordained the means of grace...prayer,preaching,and teaching accompanied by the work of the Spirit. Jesus seeks and saves each and every lost sheep.lk19:10
Jn6;37-44.
He is not willing that any one of them perish.He saves all the Father gives to Him.
We did not plan it.God did.He clearly revealed it in scripture.
We believe those verses.Do you?

yet again, you give THEOLOGY which you get from certain verses, and ignore the others, as in the OP.

Are the "elect", according to reformed theology, predestined to eternal life before God Created the universe? Do these "elect" have their own FREE WILL, so as to CHOOSE whether they will become Children of God, of is this also predetermined for them?

If this is reformed theology, then WHY does God need to PERSUADE, PLEAD, APPEAL TO, BEG, ENCOURAGE, etc, etc??? these ELECT to become Christians?

In the passage from John 6 that you refer to, and is much quoted by the reformed, we read in verse 44, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day". Again, like the verses in the OP, we have an interesting word used in John 6:44. "DRAW", the Greek verb, "ἕλκω", is used for "DRAGGING", with "notion of force or exertion". WHY the need to DRAG the "elect" to Jesus Christ, if they have been predestined to their salvation, even before they were born?

Your theology does not add up when examined against the Bible!

Now answer the passages in the OP.

 

[Iconoclast]

yet again, you give THEOLOGY which you get from certain verses, and ignore the others, as in the OP.

Are the "elect", according to reformed theology, predestined to eternal life before God Created the universe? Do these "elect" have their own FREE WILL, so as to CHOOSE whether they will become Children of God, of is this also predetermined for them?

If this is reformed theology, then WHY does God need to PERSUADE, PLEAD, APPEAL TO, BEG, ENCOURAGE, etc, etc??? these ELECT to become Christians?

In the passage from John 6 that you refer to, and is much quoted by the reformed, we read in verse 44, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day". Again, like the verses in the OP, we have an interesting word used in John 6:44. "DRAW", the Greek verb, "ἕλκω", is used for "DRAGGING", with "notion of force or exertion". WHY the need to DRAG the "elect" to Jesus Christ, if they have been predestined to their salvation, even before they were born?

Your theology does not add up when examined against the Bible!

Now answer the passages in the OP.

It adds up just fine.
6:44 shows it is an effectual drawing...it draws each and everyone.
The answer has been simply supplied you cannot grasp it yet.
God uses all those actions in real time to take a child of wrath even as others, and have them made willing as spoken of in psalm110:3.
It is simple and happens all the time.
That is a why people sing and confess I once was blind now I see.
Keep looking.
Also.. no verses are ignored in Reformed theology.
Do you expect me to put each one into use in every post.

 

[SavedByGrace]

It adds up just fine.
6:44 shows it is an effectual drawing...it draws each and everyone.
The answer has been simply supplied you cannot grasp it yet.
God uses all those actions in real time to take a child of wrath even as others, and have them made willing as spoken of in psalm110:3.
It is simple and happens all the time.
That is a why people sing and confess I once was blind now I see.
Keep looking.
Also.. no verses are ignored in Reformed theology.
Do you expect me to put each one into use in every post.

I see your THEOLOGY, but yet again you do not respond to the verses in the OP. Why is this, is it because they show that your THEOLOGY to be ERROR?

I grasp it fine, I don't AVOID the verses that are AGAINIST what I believe to be "true"

 

[Iconoclast]

I see your THEOLOGY, but yet again you do not respond to the verses in the OP. Why is this, is it because they show that your THEOLOGY to be ERROR?

I grasp it fine, I don't AVOID the verses that are AGAINIST what I believe to be "true"

I did answer.
All those verses are used as we do what we can to remove obstacles from the people who are walking blind dead men.
God gives light and sight to the elect.
The others go on resisting and hating the truth of God.

 

[SavedByGrace]

God gives light and sight to the elect

By PLEADING, DRAGGING, and telling them to MAKE EVERY EFFORT?

sounds like the don't WANT to come to God, but God is FORCING them to!

 

[Iconoclast]

By PLEADING, DRAGGING, and telling them to MAKE EVERY EFFORT?

sounds like the don't WANT to come to God, but God is FORCING them to!

We put a sense of urgency on the need to come savingly to Christ.
I use Jn 6 :37-44 all the time as a great evangelistic portion of scripture.
The certainty that all that are given shall indeed come .
When sin and death are explained the person can be informed of God's elective purposes. It can be explained that all that are given SHALL COME.
Have you come?

 

[DaveXR650]

sounds like the don't WANT to come to God, but God is FORCING them to!

That is what it sounds like. And it's what I figured it meant too. But everything Iconoclast has posted above is true. What helped me the most was reading actual sermons by reformed pastors. It isn't what you think.

 

[just-want-peace]

By PLEADING, DRAGGING, and telling them to MAKE EVERY EFFORT?

sounds like the don't WANT to come to God, but God is FORCING them to!

Your arguments are as futile as arguing with a statue of Sherman about ravaging DIXIE!
I agree with you, but the door you’re trying to open is shut tight, triple locked, & barracaded.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Your arguments are as futile as arguing with a statue of Sherman about ravaging DIXIE!
I agree with you, but the door you’re trying to open is shut tight, triple locked, & barracaded.

then PROVE the passages in the OP don't say what they do!

 

[SavedByGrace]

That is what it sounds like. And it's what I figured it meant too. But everything Iconoclast has posted above is true. What helped me the most was reading actual sermons by reformed pastors. It isn't what you think.

what do you expect REFORMED pastors to say? that their teaching on election is not Biblical?

 

[DaveXR650]

what do you expect REFORMED pastors to say? that their teaching on election is not Biblical?

You missed my point. Their sermons tend to be Hell, Fire and Brimstone, or gentle pleading and inviting, often with warning to respond to God's calling now and without delay. Theology is a good background framework for a pastor in the field. So you might say "Then what good is it". Well, without a reformed theological framework convincing someone to get saved is up to you. So the well meaning pastor decides that he's got to do something to get them in so he can work his magic. So you end up with strong guys tearing phone books in half or a guy on a motorcycle jumping a giant horseshoe crab purchased from the Creation Museum and calling it the "Leap of Faith". Oh yeah, we need theology.

 

[SavedByGrace]

You missed my point. Their sermons tend to be Hell, Fire and Brimstone, or gentle pleading and inviting, often with warning to respond to God's calling now and without delay. Theology is a good background framework for a pastor in the field. So you might say "Then what good is it". Well, without a reformed theological framework convincing someone to get saved is up to you. So the well meaning pastor decides that he's got to do something to get them in so he can work his magic. So you end up with strong guys tearing phone books in half or a guy on a motorcycle jumping a giant horseshoe crab purchased from the Creation Museum and calling it the "Leap of Faith". Oh yeah, we need theology.

The OP clearly shows from the Bible that God uses PERSUASION, ENTREATY, PLEADING, and telling the lost that they must MAKE EVERY EFFORT to enter the Narrow Gate, which is Eternal Life.

Since the elect have been predestined to eternal life before the foundation of the world, and are given as a Gift Saving Faith which saves them.

Either the Bible is wrong in what it Teaches, or Reformed theology. As the Bible is the Infallible Word of God, we must conclude that Reformed theology is in error of misrepresenting the Bible

 

[DaveXR650]

The OP clearly shows from the Bible that God uses PERSUASION, ENTREATY, PLEADING, and telling the lost that they must MAKE EVERY EFFORT to enter the Narrow Gate, which is Eternal Life.

And I have shown you that reformed preaching (by strong Calvinists) who believe all 5 TULIP points has all of those aspects. What do you think a sermon like "Heaven Taken By Storm" is going to be about, how you just realize you're saved? A lot of people don't like theology, which is fine. Most people that don't or aren't aware of it simply jump in at the point where they hear about Christ and him crucified - and they believe. But that doesn't make the theological explanation of what happened false.

 

[SavedByGrace]

And I have shown you that reformed preaching (by strong Calvinists) who believe all 5 TULIP points has all of those aspects. What do you think a sermon like "Heaven Taken By Storm" is going to be about, how you just realize you're saved? A lot of people don't like theology, which is fine. Most people that don't or aren't aware of it simply jump in at the point where they hear about Christ and him crucified - and they believe. But that doesn't make the theological explanation of what happened false.

You don't address the OP in your responses

 

[DaveXR650]

In Luke 13:24, Jesus Himself says, “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able”. The Greek verb used here, “ἀγωνίζομαι”, for CONTENDING, FIGHTING, STRUGGLE. Or, as the Christian Standard Bible reads, “Make every effort”.

You don't address the OP in your responses

You're right. Bunyan's sermon "The Strait Gate" will scare the snot out of you, and he also was a 5 pointer. I had forgotten about your reference to the narrow door.

CONTENDING< FIGHTING<STRUGGLE, yup, that's Calvinist reformed Puritan teaching. "Make every effort" is wimpy language. STRIVE.

 

[SavedByGrace]

You're right. Bunyan's sermon "The Strait Gate" will scare the snot out of you, and he also was a 5 pointer. I had forgotten about your reference to the narrow door.

CONTENDING< FIGHTING<STRUGGLE, yup, that's Calvinist reformed Puritan teaching. "Make every effort" is wimpy language. STRIVE.

How can Luke 13.24 refer only to the elect?

 

[just-want-peace]

then PROVE the passages in the OP don't say what they do!

Read carefully & don’t assume all replies are bucking your statements.

I AGREED WITH YOU!!!

 

[DaveXR650]

How can Luke 13.24 refer only to the elect?

Here again, reformed theology explains this better than other systems. You have to admit first of all, this verse is a much bigger problem for free willers. They seek to enter in but they can't. How would you explain it.

Here's how I would:
Reformed theology teaches that men are not capable of doing anything good on their own. As I read Calvinist literature I discovered that they did not mean that men can't do anything virtuous or have high thoughts about morality or even how to please God. Read Calvinist explanations of the "general call" as stated in the WCF and they say this call is real and many move quite far along toward saving knowledge of Christ. But they don't enter. Why? It could be they loved darkness rather than light. They found the narrow way not to be the path they wanted. Figuratively, they wouldn't ditch the stuff they wanted to bring with them, whether sin or self righteousness, or works and they can't fit through the gate with those. Notice that this is all according to their choice and will. But some, because of God's saving grace and "effectual call" do finally rip themselves from all these things and after much struggle enter the gate and go on the way, giving glory to God for saving them - even though there was much anxiety as this happened. And of course, that verse doesn't even mention the fact that there are many others who don't even bother to look for the gate!