Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Agree. @SavedByGrace often posts caricatures of reformed theology, not actual reformed theology.
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Why Do The Elect Need to Be Persuaded?
- Thread starter SavedByGrace
- Start date
Reformed teachers are reformed because they see it clearly.what do you expect REFORMED pastors to say? that their teaching on election is not Biblical?
Do you lose sleep when Paul writeshe endures all things for the elects sake.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Why the need to be "reformed" anyway? what is wrong with being a simple, Bible-believing, Christian? Neither Jesus Christ, nor Paul, nor any of the other NT Writers, were "reformed"! This is just a smoke-screen to hide some very dodgy teachings!
With your many replies, as usual, you fail to answer the OP. I suppose I should not expect any different!
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
humble apologies!
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Did you know, that when the Bible says, "many are CALLED" (Matthew 22:14, ) that the Greek says, INVITED? Now, and INVITATION is such, that it can be either ACCEPTED, or REJECTED, or else it is not an INVITATION!
κλητός, "invited (by God in the proclamation of the gospel) to obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God through Christ", Thayer Greek Lexicon
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Nothing at all. I wouldn't say anything to you about this except you did post in a "Baptist Debate Forum". You go to an average reformed Baptist church and half the people couldn't articulate most reformed theology. I would never buttonhole a fellow believer about this outside of a debate forum. I hope you don't think when we argue about this stuff that I in any way doubt your salvation. I apologize if I give that impression.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Always studying but never learning.
Do you not realize the passage you (half) quoted from Matthew 24:14, “Many are called…. BUT FEW are chosen”, supports reformed theology?
The parable, in context, is that God had invited a great many people to the wedding fest and THEY ALL REJECTED the invitation.
He then His servants out to compel others to attend, but rejected the one without “wedding clothes”, which could refer to God Holy Spirit indwelling or bring clothed with the righteousness of Christ through faith.
Bottom line, like always, you do not attempt to show scripture in context, you just look for words or phrases and say “ah hah, I can use that to attack reformed theology on the BB.”
peace to you
By PLEADING, DRAGGING, and telling them to MAKE EVERY EFFORT?
sounds like the don't WANT to come to God, but God is FORCING them to!
You two gotta look in the mirror and speak to yourself on this issue.
I am quite sure you cannot see it, but @Iconoclast fully answered the OP and the verses being used by the OP. The problem is not with Iconoclast having a barricade. The problem is that you haven't reconciled what you think is a problem with the reality that God has fully answered you, just as Iconoclast explained it to you.
Really, both you and sbg are hating on God because you can't really believe what God has fully said in the Bible. Because what God is doing doesn't make sense to you, you try to make God fit into what you want God to do so that your opinion will be what God would do. Really, it's you attempting to tell God that He is wrong and He needs to do it your way.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
That's what reformed means.
The church drifted from truth early onWhy the need to be "reformed" anyway? what is wrong with being a simple, Bible-believing, Christian? Neither Jesus Christ, nor Paul, nor any of the other NT Writers, were "reformed"! This is just a smoke-screen to hide some very dodgy teachings!
With your many replies, as usual, you fail to answer the OP. I suppose I should not expect any different!
Acts20:28-31.
reformed means to set things right.
man centered theology crept in with cults.
like today people want man in control rather than God.
Been there, done that - apology cheerfully accepted!!!
That is actually what 'irresistible grace' means. But as for the rest, the simple answer is that it pleased God to have it so (Luke 14:23; 1 Corinthians 1:21). The Lord Jesus will not lose even one of those the Father has given Him (John 6:39).By PLEADING, DRAGGING, and telling them to MAKE EVERY EFFORT?
sounds like the don't WANT to come to God, but God is FORCING them to!
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
The elect we are told have been predestined to salvation even before the foundation of the world. They have no choice in their salvation because God has already chosen them out of the world, and enabled their will so that they cannot refuse God's saving Grace.
The words used in the OP are clear evidence, that it is to the entire human race, and not just the elect, that they are spoken. They are nonsense for the elect only
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
This is very true about your theology which is man made and not from the Bible
First of all SBG it doesn't say that...
Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
This is a discipleship gate and God is pleading with his children to stay on narrow way, there is no eternal mentioned in it... And if there are few be that find eternal life, how did the multitude no man number get into Heaven?... Brother Glen
Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
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Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Dave I have noticed that many times you refer to reformed writers that have lead you to the reformed view. Have you ever wondered why? Have you ever taken the time to just read the bible without the Calvinist view placed over the text?
What I always find surprising is that Calvinists can not give a reasonable answer as to how or why people were saved before Augustine/Calvin discover what the bible was really saying about salvation.
From what Calvinists keep saying we did not need the Apostles, or preachers or for that matter even the bible. God was just going to drop faith into the ones He had chosen to save and the rest, well they would just never have known about being saved.
Actually when you think about it that would have been a much better way for God to do it. No need of Christ Jesus to suffer and die, no religious wars. Think about it, everyone would have just lived their lives the way God determined it to be and then when they died some would go to heaven and the rest would go to hell. No fuss no mess.
But, and here is where the fly is in the ointment so to speak. That is not what we find in the bible is it. Christ Jesus came to save sinners, God desires that all be saved, we have the gospel message, we have to believe that message before we are saved. God could have done it the way that Calvinism presents it but instead He chose to do it the way the bible presents it.
Dave reformed writers/preachers will teach according to what they believe to be true, so when you read them, then of course, they will show you what you are looking for. Why would you expect anything else.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
First of all SBG it doesn't say that...
Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
This is a discipleship gate and God is pleading with his children to stay on narrow way, there is no eternal mentioned in it... And if there are few be that find eternal life, how did the multitude no man number get into Heaven?... Brother Glen
Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Luke 13:24, not Matthew, which the Weymouth New Testament rightly reads
"Strain every nerve to force your way in through the narrow gate," He answered; "for multitudes, I tell you, will endeavour to find a way in and will not succeed
which is what the Greek says!
The passage is about the NARROW WAY (JESUS CHRIST) TO HEAVEN
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Of course that's true. What happened with me was that I was disappointed with the lack of seriousness when it came to living the Christian life in my old church. I started reading guys outside my normal scope of gurus and found a seriousness and warm preaching that I had been missing. They were Puritans and guys like Jerry Bridges and Paul Washer and Charles Spurgeon. I was so unsophisticated theologically that I did not know what Calvinism was. I had been told that Calvin and Luther were "wrong on baptism, wrong on the Lord's supper, what's the use of listening to them"! People on a theological board like this may laugh but after going on about the teaching of Bunyan to an older Christian he told me Bunyan was a Calvinist and I was really offended. It was after that that I began to look at some of the theological claims of Calvinism with a different attitude.
You know, before the internet, in the middle ages, (the '70's), you could not find most of the Puritan writings in paperback. Had not Banner of Truth started publishing and Martyn LLoyd-Jones and some guys in England begin finding and republishing some of the Puritan's I don't think the resurgence in Calvinism would have occurred. My first exposure to Spurgeon was a sermon reprinted in "Sword of the Lord" so you know where I'm coming from.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Neither Jesus Christ, nor Paul, nor any of the other NT Writers, were "reformed"! This is just a smoke-screen to hide some very dodgy teachings!
Oh no! I should have known better than to get on here. I share how I discovered Bunyan was a Calvinist, then I find out Jesus wasn't reformed. What next. Is somebody gonna come on here and tell me God did not dictate the KJV Bible to King James?
Not me!... Brother Glen
Psalm 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.