Why do you sin?

[Luke2427]

Pure nonsense and you know it. People like things that are easy and feel good because they are easy and feel good.

Who are you trying to convice? :laugh:

WHY?

Why do people prefer the easy bad over the hard good?

I prefer to go the extra ten miles through traffic to get Indian food rather than stop for a Big Mac. Why? Because I prefer Indian over a Big Mac.

So why do you not always go the extra mile for good?

 

[Winman]

WHY?

Why do people prefer the easy bad over the hard good?

I prefer to go the extra ten miles through traffic to get Indian food rather than stop for a Big Mac. Why? Because I prefer Indian over a Big Mac.

So why do you not always go the extra mile for good?

You have answered your own question. You go an extra 10 miles because you enjoy that Indian food better than a Big Mac at McDonalds. I might be the opposite, I might prefer the Big Mac.

But you answered your own question, you consider the Indian food better for some reason, either it tastes better, or is more nutritious, or perhaps other reasons, you get big servings at a low cost, etc...

Why are you playing stupid? You know these answers as well as I do.

 

[Winman]

Matthew 6:2
“So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.

Matthew 6:5
[ Prayer ] “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.

Matthew 6:16
[ Fasting ] “When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.

John 15:
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

This is an altogether different subject here. This was the Pharisees going through the streets with musicians playing instruments to attract attention when they gave to the poor. Or they disfigured their faces when they fasted. These persons were trying to draw honor and attention to themselves.

But if you simply ask your friend what time it is, and he looks at his watch and tells you without really thinking about it, that is no sin.

See, you are taking an extreme case and applying it to everything. That is complete error. When your mother changed your diaper when you were a baby, she did it because she was concerned for your welfare, not to get honor and glory.

You have allowed a false teaching to give you a perverted view of mankind.

 

[JPPT1974]

Everybody sins plain and simple. Nobody is perfect. Only one that has the right to be perfect is God and only God alone.

We sin due to...

1. Making ourselves look better and bigger.
2. Trying to protect ourselves.
3. And not let ourselves get in trouble.
4. As it comes at the expense of other people that do get in trouble.

 

[DHK]

You have allowed a false teaching to give you a perverted view of mankind.

If you were to believe the Westminster shorter catechism, which asks the question:
"What is the chief end of man"?
"The chief end of man is to glorify God and to enjoy Him forever."

Does that sound right? Would you agree with that statement, or at least a statement close to that? Is your purpose in life to glorify God?
If so, then it is a sin when you do those things that do not glorify Him.

A good instance of that is, in the thread now closed, you deliberately chose to call two posters "idiots." I edited it out. It wasn't glorifying to God. It didn't edify anyone. It was a bad testimony to all on this board.

So why would you do that?
If we are to "be to the praise of His glory who first trusted Christ," why do foolish things like that, when no one is forcing you? Here is the question being asked of you?
Why sin? Why, when you don't have to? What makes you sin?
You have no other answer then your sin nature.
The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it. It is called depravity.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

If you were to believe the Westminster shorter catechism, which asks the question:
"What is the chief end of man"?
"The chief end of man is to glorify God and to enjoy Him forever."

Does that sound right? Would you agree with that statement, or at least a statement close to that? Is your purpose in life to glorify God?
If so, then it is a sin when you do those things that do not glorify Him.

A good instance of that is, in the thread now closed, you deliberately chose to call two posters "idiots." I edited it out. It wasn't glorifying to God. It didn't edify anyone. It was a bad testimony to all on this board.

So why would you do that?
If we are to "be to the praise of His glory who first trusted Christ," why do foolish things like that, when no one is forcing you? Here is the question being asked of you?
Why sin? Why, when you don't have to? What makes you sin?
You have no other answer then your sin nature.
The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it. It is called depravity.

Amen to that.

 

[Winman]

If you were to believe the Westminster shorter catechism, which asks the question:
"What is the chief end of man"?
"The chief end of man is to glorify God and to enjoy Him forever."

That doesn't mean that everything you do besides worshiping God is a sin. It is not a sin to tell someone what time it is if they ask, and nobody does that to glorify themselves.

It just shows folks can go completely overboard. Some here claim that everything a non-believer does is sin, that is pure nonsense. It is stuff like that that makes Christians look like idiots.

Does that sound right? Would you agree with that statement, or at least a statement close to that? Is your purpose in life to glorify God?
If so, then it is a sin when you do those things that do not glorify Him.

It sounds great, but that doesn't mean everything a non-believer does is sin. It is not a sin when a non-believer is faithful to his wife because he loves her.

A good instance of that is, in the thread now closed, you deliberately chose to call two posters "idiots." I edited it out. It wasn't glorifying to God. It didn't edify anyone. It was a bad testimony to all on this board.

I did not call anybody an idiot, I said I can't stand idiots. Your comprehension skills are not that good.

So why would you do that?
If we are to "be to the praise of His glory who first trusted Christ," why do foolish things like that, when no one is forcing you? Here is the question being asked of you?

Oh, it was a little foolish, I admit. I do not take myself dead serious all the time the way others seem to do. I like to think I have a sense of humor.

Why sin? Why, when you don't have to? What makes you sin?
You have no other answer then your sin nature.
The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it. It is called depravity.

Oh brother, like you don't sin? What a joke. You are as stubborn and as obstinate as they come, you have a lot of gall pointing out other's sin. You need to look in the mirror fella, look real close.

 

[DHK]

That doesn't mean that everything you do besides worshiping God is a sin. It is not a sin to tell someone what time it is if they ask, and nobody does that to glorify themselves.

It just shows folks can go completely overboard. Some here claim that everything a non-believer does is sin, that is pure nonsense. It is stuff like that that makes Christians look like idiots.

Romans 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
--The above is worship: Presenting your body a living sacrifice--something that must be done 24/7
--Renewing your mind...proving the will of God: 24/7.

Praying always; rejoicing always, giving thanks in everything, and:
"Be ye continually filled with the Holy Spirit."
--Worship is in everything we do. Jesus spoke of giving a glass of water in my name. It could be a glass of water, it could be giving someone the time, or telling them what time it is. Is it a service done for Christ, in the name of Christ, for His sake--small or little, does it matter?
Worship is not confined to one hour at 11:00 am. in the church building of your choice. It is putting Christ first in your life, and making sure that all that you do you do for Him; that He gets the praise and glory for it.

OTOH, what can an unsaved man do that is considered good?
Isaiah said:
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
--There is nothing good. Everything he does is as a filthy rag.

Look at the question that the crowds asked Jesus:
John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
--What good work could they do?

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
--The only good work they could is to believe. First get saved; then God would consider their works, not until then will one's works be considered.

It sounds great, but that doesn't mean everything a non-believer does is sin. It is not a sin when a non-believer is faithful to his wife because he loves her.

Can an Ethiopian change its skin; can a leopard change its spots? neither can you who are accustomed to doing evil.

I did not call anybody an idiot, I said I can't stand idiots. Your comprehension skills are not that good.

I am not a Calvinist. Suppose you were arguing with someone about Irresistable grace. He makes his point, and you respond "I can't stand idiots!" Did you call him an idiot or not? IMO, you did. And that is how I took it.

Oh, it was a little foolish, I admit. I do not take myself dead serious all the time the way others seem to do. I like to think I have a sense of humor.

Proverbs 15:2 The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness.

Proverbs 24:9 The thought of foolishness is sin: and the scorner is an abomination to men.

Foolishness is wrong. It is not a manner of humor.

Oh brother, like you don't sin? What a joke. You are as stubborn and as obstinate as they come, you have a lot of gall pointing out other's sin. You need to look in the mirror fella, look real close.

Look up 1John 1:8,10
If I told you I didn't sin, then I would be sinning. We all sin. We have a sin nature. By nature we sin. The name of this thread is "Why do you sin."
Yes, I made it personal. The reason? Personal examples quite often work by making the person think more. Besides that, the title of the thread is personal, using a personal pronoun. Why do YOU sin? Good question!

 

[Winman]

Romans 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
--The above is worship: Presenting your body a living sacrifice--something that must be done 24/7
--Renewing your mind...proving the will of God: 24/7.

Praying always; rejoicing always, giving thanks in everything, and:
"Be ye continually filled with the Holy Spirit."
--Worship is in everything we do. Jesus spoke of giving a glass of water in my name. It could be a glass of water, it could be giving someone the time, or telling them what time it is. Is it a service done for Christ, in the name of Christ, for His sake--small or little, does it matter?
Worship is not confined to one hour at 11:00 am. in the church building of your choice. It is putting Christ first in your life, and making sure that all that you do you do for Him; that He gets the praise and glory for it.

OTOH, what can an unsaved man do that is considered good?
Isaiah said:
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
--There is nothing good. Everything he does is as a filthy rag.

That verse does not mean we cannot do good. A coat represents righteousness in the scriptures, as when God clothed Adam and Eve with coats made from an animal skin.

The fact we have a coat on shows that we do some good, but that coat is torn and filthy because of the sin we have committed.

Jesus taught that even sinners do good.

Luk 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

Jesus tells us here that sinners both love and do good. Yes, he is saying that it is no big deal to love those that love us, and to do good to those that do good to us, and it is far greater to love those who hate you and treat you poorly, nevertheless it is still good to love those that love you and do good to those that do good to you. In fact, you should love those that love you and do good to those that do good to you.

So sinners can love, and they can do good. Christians tend to be too critical of non-believers. They aren't all wicked demons as some portray them, some are much better people than Christians I have known.

Look at the question that the crowds asked Jesus:
John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
--What good work could they do?

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
--The only good work they could is to believe. First get saved; then God would consider their works, not until then will one's works be considered.

I agree 100% that all you can do to be saved is believe. But it is not a sin when an unbeliever tells the truth, or when an unbeliever does a good work. They don't always have some ulterior motive, they are not always trying to glorify themselves. Christians are too critical.

Can an Ethiopian change its skin; can a leopard change its spots? neither can you who are accustomed to doing evil.

If your interpretation of this scripture were true, then God would be the author of sin. After all, who gave the leopard his spots? God! Who gave the Ethiopian his dark skin? God!

You are misinterpreting this verse, it is a kind of sarcasm, Jeremiah is saying these Jews are so accustomed (a learned behavior) to sinning, that it has almost become their nature like spots on a leopard or dark skin on an Ethiopian. You have completely misinterpreted this scripture. Your interpretation actually blames God!

I am not a Calvinist. Suppose you were arguing with someone about Irresistable grace. He makes his point, and you respond "I can't stand idiots!" Did you call him an idiot or not? IMO, you did. And that is how I took it.

I know you are not a Calvinist, but you have been greatly influenced by Calvinism as I once was. I used to tell my kids that we sin because we are born sinners. Total error, I pray God forgives me for teaching this error.

You believe like Calvinists, that we are like a corrupt tree that can only bear corrupt fruit. This is the false teaching of Luther, Calvin, and Edwards. Jesus shows we can determine whether we are a good tree or corrupt.

Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Your will is not controlled by your nature as Calvinism falsely teaches, your nature is controlled by your will. You can "either make" yourself a good tree with good fruit, "or else make" yourself a corrupt tree with corrupt fruit. Total Inability is absolutely false doctrine.

Proverbs 15:2 The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness.

Proverbs 24:9 The thought of foolishness is sin: and the scorner is an abomination to men.

Foolishness is wrong. It is not a manner of humor.

I don't know, Elijah mocked the false prophets.

1 Kin 8:27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.

Do you know why Elijah mocked these false prophets? Because they were extremely stubborn and obstinate. They continued to leap and jump and cut themselves for hours even when it was obvious their false god was not going to answer.

And this is how I tend to deal with very stubborn and obstinate people. They are not going to listen, so you mock them to embarrass them. Sometimes this is the only way you can get a hard-headed person's attention. And sometimes even that doesn't work.

Look up 1John 1:8,10
If I told you I didn't sin, then I would be sinning. We all sin. We have a sin nature. By nature we sin. The name of this thread is "Why do you sin."
Yes, I made it personal. The reason? Personal examples quite often work by making the person think more. Besides that, the title of the thread is personal, using a personal pronoun. Why do YOU sin? Good question!

We sin because we obey the lust of our flesh. Jesus had the exact same flesh as us, his flesh pulled and tugged at him just like ours does. This is temptation, not sin. Jesus never obeyed his flesh when it would have caused him to sin. We do.

Luke asks why do we sin? We enjoy it. People take drugs because it feels good. People commit fornication because it is very pleasurable, at least for the moment, though it may quickly bring shame or death. People are arrogant because it appeals to their pride.

The three lusts are named in 1 Jhn 2:16, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. This is why we sin.

But you are wrong to teach Jesus did not have the same exact flesh as us, he did.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

This teaching that Jesus was born of a virgin to escape a sin nature is false. What difference would a virgin make? Are virgins sinless?

No, she had to be a virgin because it was a sign, this is how people knew Jesus was the son of God, because he was born of a virgin. It was a miracle. It had nothing to do with a sin nature being physically passed from the father, that is nothing but superstition. Jesus was the "son" of David.

 

[DHK]

That verse does not mean we cannot do good. A coat represents righteousness in the scriptures, as when God clothed Adam and Eve with coats made from an animal skin.

It says what it says, and one should not twist its meaning to say otherwise. In the sight of God one's righteousnesses are as filthy rags. If you look in other translations the term "filthy rags" is even more descriptive. The KJV translators were being "polite."
(LITV) But we are all as the unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as a menstruation cloth. And we all fade as a leaf, and like the wind our iniquities take us away.
--Read the Levitical laws. As soon as it touches the body it is unclean. When taken from the body it is good for nothing. There couldn't be a more descriptive analogy for one's good works or righteousness than this term. It the sight of God they are so abhorrent that even to touch them one would have to remain unclean and outside the camp of Israel for a period of days. How disgusting is man's "good works" before he is saved in the sight of God!!

The fact we have a coat on shows that we do some good, but that coat is torn and filthy because of the sin we have committed.

Study the verse Winman. A menstrual cloth is not a coat!!
The picture is one of total depravity. There was never any good in the cloth to begin with. It represented uncleanness and defilement ALL the time. Not until it was taken off the body and a time of purity was taken could a person be declared clean by the priest.

Jesus taught that even sinners do good.

Luk 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

Jesus tells us here that sinners both love and do good. Yes, he is saying that it is no big deal to love those that love us, and to do good to those that do good to us, and it is far greater to love those who hate you and treat you poorly, nevertheless it is still good to love those that love you and do good to those that do good to you. In fact, you should love those that love you and do good to those that do good to you.

He was making a comparison. But it is your privilege to twist his words and make them mean what you want them to mean.

So sinners can love, and they can do good. Christians tend to be too critical of non-believers. They aren't all wicked demons as some portray them, some are much better people than Christians I have known.

"Why do you call me good. There is none good but One, and that is God."
There is none good; no not one.
There is none righteous not one.
--And yet you say there are good unsaved people. Your beliefs go directly contrary to Scripture.
Lot's actions were not a good testimony. But Lot was declared just and righteous before God. Before a person's works can be declared "good" their heart must be declared "just" before God. Otherwise they, like all unsaved, "love darkness rather than light, for their deeds are evil."

I agree 100% that all you can do to be saved is believe. But it is not a sin when an unbeliever tells the truth, or when an unbeliever does a good work. They don't always have some ulterior motive, they are not always trying to glorify themselves. Christians are too critical.

So you believe those "works" are going to win them brownie points before God??

Proverbs 21:27 The sacrifice of the wicked is abomination: how much more, when he bringeth it with a wicked mind?
--There is no sacrifice a man can bring before God that God will accept.

 

[DHK]

If your interpretation of this scripture were true, then God would be the author of sin. After all, who gave the leopard his spots? God! Who gave the Ethiopian his dark skin? God!

You are misinterpreting this verse, it is a kind of sarcasm, Jeremiah is saying these Jews are so accustomed (a learned behavior) to sinning, that it has almost become their nature like spots on a leopard or dark skin on an Ethiopian. You have completely misinterpreted this scripture. Your interpretation actually blames God!

There is no sarcasm here. Jeremiah is using illustrations to teach Israel about their sinfulness.

There is no sarcasm in this passage. Read it for yourself:
Jeremiah 13:22-25 And if thou say in thine heart, Wherefore come these things upon me? For the greatness of thine iniquity are thy skirts discovered, and thy heels made bare. Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. Therefore will I scatter them as the stubble that passeth away by the wind of the wilderness. This is thy lot, the portion of thy measures from me, saith the LORD; because thou hast forgotten me, and trusted in falsehood.
--It is a serious passage of judgment. In it are some metaphors and similes, but no sarcasm. They had forgotten God. They were trusting in a falsehood.
Jeremiah 13:27 I have seen thine adulteries, and thy neighings, the lewdness of thy whoredom, and thine abominations on the hills in the fields. Woe unto thee, O Jerusalem! wilt thou not be made clean? when shall it once be?
--Would there even be one time when Israel would be clean. No. Not even one time. It was not in Israel's nature to be clean and pure. This was a chapter on judgment. Later there would come a chapter on hope and restoration, but not here.
It is God's indictment on the sin of Israel.
BTW, Israel must take responsibility for her own sin. God is not the author of sin here. That is a gross misinterpretation.

I know you are not a Calvinist, but you have been greatly influenced by Calvinism as I once was. I used to tell my kids that we sin because we are born sinners. Total error, I pray God forgives me for teaching this error.

You believe like Calvinists, that we are like a corrupt tree that can only bear corrupt fruit. This is the false teaching of Luther, Calvin, and Edwards. Jesus shows we can determine whether we are a good tree or corrupt.

Nevermind, you just missed that point completely. It went right over your head.

Mat 12:33

Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Your will is not controlled by your nature as Calvinism falsely teaches, your nature is controlled by your will. You can "either make" yourself a good tree with good fruit, "or else make" yourself a corrupt tree with corrupt fruit. Total Inability is absolutely false doctrine.

I don't believe in Total Inability. So why argue with me about it?
However man does have a depraved nature.
Matthew 12:33 shows that point very well. A corrupt tree produces corrupt fruit. It always will produce corrupt fruit. It is unable to produce good fruit. Not without divine intervention cannot it produce good fruit. It would take a miracle for it to produce good fruit. That is the whole point of what Christ was saying there, but it goes right over your head. Unless there is intervention the corrupt tree will always be corrupt. That is the nature of the tree.

I don't know, Elijah mocked the false prophets.

1 Kin 8:27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.

Do you know why Elijah mocked these false prophets? Because they were extremely stubborn and obstinate. They continued to leap and jump and cut themselves for hours even when it was obvious their false god was not going to answer.

And this is how I tend to deal with very stubborn and obstinate people. They are not going to listen, so you mock them to embarrass them. Sometimes this is the only way you can get a hard-headed person's attention. And sometimes even that doesn't work.

So mocking and trying to embarrass your brothers and sisters on this board is a better tactic than showing them respect??
I doubt if the administration would agree with you.

We sin because we obey the lust of our flesh. Jesus had the exact same flesh as us, his flesh pulled and tugged at him just like ours does. This is temptation, not sin. Jesus never obeyed his flesh when it would have caused him to sin. We do.

But you contradict yourself. I give credit to the Calvinist here. At least he is not contradicting himself.
You take full responsibility for all your sins, and say you never have any excuse to sin. But you sin. The reason I pointed it out is to show the fallacy in your logic. If you could stop you would. But you can't. It is impossible for you to stop sinning even though you say you can. You can't stop sinning because you have a depraved nature, and because of that nature you keep on sinning.

Luke asks why do we sin? We enjoy it. People take drugs because it feels good. People commit fornication because it is very pleasurable, at least for the moment, though it may quickly bring shame or death. People are arrogant because it appeals to their pride.

The three lusts are named in 1 Jhn 2:16, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. This is why we sin.

You sin because you want to sin.
You sin because you have a depraved nature.
Both are true at the same time.

But you are wrong to teach Jesus did not have the same exact flesh as us, he did.

Jesus did not have a "sin nature." To say that he did is heresy.

This teaching that Jesus was born of a virgin to escape a sin nature is false. What difference would a virgin make? Are virgins sinless?

We have an "Adamic nature." Why do you think it is called an "Adamic nature"? There is a reason for that.

No, she had to be a virgin because it was a sign, this is how people knew Jesus was the son of God, because he was born of a virgin. It was a miracle. It had nothing to do with a sin nature being physically passed from the father, that is nothing but superstition. Jesus was the "son" of David.

You have much to learn. Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit not of man. Even in this century there have been claims to having been born of a virgin. But Christ was conceived of the Holy Spirit. He had no sin nature.

His genealogy, through both Mary and Joseph, reaches back to David.

Matthew 9:27 And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou Son of David, have mercy on us.

Ver 27. Son of David. By the Son of David the Jews meant the Messiah. He was the Son or descendant of David by way of eminence, Isa 9:7; Lu 1:32; Mt 1:1; Re 22:16. (Albert Barnes)

Both Mary and Joseph were technically "sons" or descendants of David, but Christ was THE Son of David, that is, the Messiah.

 

[Winman]

There is no sarcasm here. Jeremiah is using illustrations to teach Israel about their sinfulness.

There is no sarcasm in this passage. Read it for yourself:
Jeremiah 13:22-25 And if thou say in thine heart, Wherefore come these things upon me? For the greatness of thine iniquity are thy skirts discovered, and thy heels made bare. Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. Therefore will I scatter them as the stubble that passeth away by the wind of the wilderness. This is thy lot, the portion of thy measures from me, saith the LORD; because thou hast forgotten me, and trusted in falsehood.
--It is a serious passage of judgment. In it are some metaphors and similes, but no sarcasm. They had forgotten God. They were trusting in a falsehood.
Jeremiah 13:27 I have seen thine adulteries, and thy neighings, the lewdness of thy whoredom, and thine abominations on the hills in the fields. Woe unto thee, O Jerusalem! wilt thou not be made clean? when shall it once be?
--Would there even be one time when Israel would be clean. No. Not even one time. It was not in Israel's nature to be clean and pure. This was a chapter on judgment. Later there would come a chapter on hope and restoration, but not here.
It is God's indictment on the sin of Israel.
BTW, Israel must take responsibility for her own sin. God is not the author of sin here. That is a gross misinterpretation.

Your interpretation makes God the author of sin. You believe Israel sinned because they have a depraved nature, just as it is a leopard's nature to have spots, and an Ethiopian's nature to have dark skin.

But who gave the leopard his spots? And who gave the Ethiopian his dark skin? God. Your interpretation makes God the author of sin.

Jeremiah is not saying the Jews were born with a depraved nature. He is saying they are so ACCUSTOMED to sin, that they can barely stop. It is almost as IF it were their nature. But Jeremiah is not saying being sinful is their nature, he is saying the opposite. You are the one who is not getting it. The word "accustomed" means a learned behavior, look in any dictionary.

Nevermind, you just missed that point completely. It went right over your head.

I don't believe in Total Inability. So why argue with me about it? However man does have a depraved nature.

Matthew 12:33 shows that point very well. A corrupt tree produces corrupt fruit. It always will produce corrupt fruit. It is unable to produce good fruit. Not without divine intervention cannot it produce good fruit. It would take a miracle for it to produce good fruit. That is the whole point of what Christ was saying there, but it goes right over your head. Unless there is intervention the corrupt tree will always be corrupt. That is the nature of the tree.

Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

No, Jesus shows that we have both the option and ability to determine which kind of tree we are. He is saying either make yourself a good tree with good fruit, or make yourself a corrupt tree with corrupt fruit. You have complete choice of which kind of tree you want to be and the power to perform that.

So mocking and trying to embarrass your brothers and sisters on this board is a better tactic than showing them respect??
I doubt if the administration would agree with you.

And you used a rolling eyes smiley earlier. What is the difference? I just prefer to use my own forms of sarcasm, either words, or sometimes a gif.

But you contradict yourself. I give credit to the Calvinist here. At least he is not contradicting himself.
You take full responsibility for all your sins, and say you never have any excuse to sin. But you sin. The reason I pointed it out is to show the fallacy in your logic. If you could stop you would. But you can't. It is impossible for you to stop sinning even though you say you can. You can't stop sinning because you have a depraved nature, and because of that nature you keep on sinning.
You sin because you want to sin.
You sin because you have a depraved nature.
Both are true at the same time.

No, I sin because I still have my flesh which pulls and tugs me toward sin. And it is indeed difficult to always deny your flesh. A perfect example is the disciples in the garden. I believe they truly wanted to stay awake and pray with Jesus, but their flesh was very weak and caused them to fall asleep.

Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

This verse refutes Total Inability, because it shows man's natural mind can be willing to obey God. It was their flesh that was the problem, it pulled and tugged them to sleep when they had been commanded to stay awake and pray. I can relate to this, we sometimes have long meetings at work and I find it very difficult to stay awake. I am just one of those persons that needs to move around. I want to stay awake and alert, but my body wants to go to sleep.

And this is why we sin, many times our body wins the battle. Our flesh is not really sinful, it does not have a mind per se, it just "feels" desires and lusts. It is our mind and spirit that decides what we do. Unfortunately, we are very "accustomed" to give our flesh it's way, and we continue to do so often, even after we are saved.

Jesus did not have a "sin nature." To say that he did is heresy.
We have an "Adamic nature." Why do you think it is called an "Adamic nature"? There is a reason for that.
You have much to learn. Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit not of man. Even in this century there have been claims to having been born of a virgin. But Christ was conceived of the Holy Spirit. He had no sin nature.

Jesus had the same EXACT flesh as us. His flesh pulled and tugged him toward sin just as much as ours. The scriptures say he could be "touched" with the "feeling" of our infirmities. When he was in the wilderness, he was literally starving to eat, this is why the devil tempted him to turn stones to bread, he attacked Jesus at his weakest point. And as a man, Jesus had weakness or infirmity just like us. He had to eat, had to sleep, etc... He felt the pull and tug of temptation in "all points" as we do, yet he never sinned.

And this is what people mean when they say "sin nature", they are talking about that pull and tug our flesh exerts upon us. It is not a sin nature, it is our "flesh". And again, Jesus had the same exact flesh that we have.

His genealogy, through both Mary and Joseph, reaches back to David.

Matthew 9:27 And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou Son of David, have mercy on us.

Ver 27. Son of David. By the Son of David the Jews meant the Messiah. He was the Son or descendant of David by way of eminence, Isa 9:7; Lu 1:32; Mt 1:1; Re 22:16. (Albert Barnes)

Both Mary and Joseph were technically "sons" or descendants of David, but Christ was THE Son of David, that is, the Messiah.

No, Jesus was "made" of the "seed" of David according to the flesh. He wasn't simply a legal descendant of David, he was an actual physical descendant of David with David's DNA in his body.

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

What the scriptures call "seed" here is what we now understand to be our DNA. It is a code you inherit from your parents. You inherit 50% of your DNA from your father, and 50% from your mother. Of that 50% DNA you inherit from your mother, 50% come from her father. In fact, it was once believed that baldness was inherited from your mother's father, but I am not sure if they still believe that.

There is a 4 in 7 chance of receiving the baldness gene.[11] Onset of hair loss sometimes begins as early as the end of puberty, and is mostly genetically determined. It was previously believed that baldness was inherited from the maternal grandfather. While there is some basis for this belief, both parents contribute to their offspring's likelihood of hair loss. Most likely, inheritance involves many genes with variable penetrance.

Jesus inherited a trace of David's DNA through Mary, in fact, he inherited DNA all the way back to Adam through Mary. This is that "seed" according to the "flesh". So Jesus was a real physical descendant of David.

This belief that sin is inherited physically from our father is nothing but pure superstition. Sin is something you do, not something you are.

 

[DHK]

Your interpretation makes God the author of sin. You believe Israel sinned because they have a depraved nature, just as it is a leopard's nature to have spots, and an Ethiopian's nature to have dark skin.

But who gave the leopard his spots? And who gave the Ethiopian his dark skin? God. Your interpretation makes God the author of sin.

Your reasoning and accusations are absolutely ridiculous. You charge God with sin, and you have even become a racist.
First, no one said that the leopard having spots was sinful.
Second, the color of a black man is not sinful. Stop being a racist. The fact that God gave men different colors of skin is not sinful. Why do you accuse God of sin. Shame on you!
The lesson God is teaching is that no matter who the person is; what the animal is; they can't change their nature if they wanted to. A black man cannot change his color and a leopard cannot change his spots. It has nothing to do with evil.
What does have to do with evil is man's nature. As Jeremiah said, it is evil, an evil nature, has been from birth just like the leopard's spots and the Ethiopian's skin and therefore is accustomed to doing evil. Why shouldn't it be accustomed to doing evil? Like the leopard and the Ethiopian it has a nature that is evil from birth (as they have a certain skin color from birth).

Jeremiah is not saying the Jews were born with a depraved nature. He is saying they are so ACCUSTOMED to sin, that they can barely stop. It is almost as IF it were their nature. But Jeremiah is not saying being sinful is their nature, he is saying the opposite. You are the one who is not getting it. The word "accustomed" means a learned behavior, look in any dictionary.

Already answered. The Ethiopian was accustomed to his skin color because he had it from birth.

Mat 12:33

Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

No, Jesus shows that we have both the option and ability to determine which kind of tree we are. He is saying either make yourself a good tree with good fruit, or make yourself a corrupt tree with corrupt fruit. You have complete choice of which kind of tree you want to be and the power to perform that.

Do you have any trees where you live? I do: Spruce, pine, Aspen, Russian Olive, and some others. They are all in my back yard. No matter what I do I cannot make the Aspen tree into a pine tree. It is impossible. It will always be Aspen no matter what I do. You are missing the point of what Jesus is teaching. You think that Jesus is teaching that it is possible for me to change an Aspen tree into a pine tree. I can't. I can't change its nature. For the tree is known by its fruit!

And you used a rolling eyes smiley earlier. What is the difference? I just prefer to use my own forms of sarcasm, either words, or sometimes a gif.

Some years ago someone on the board encouraged me to use at least some icons so to help them differentiate the "tone" I was using. I considered his advice. Your words of so-called sarcasm along with your choice of words "idiots" is not right under any circumstances.

No, I sin because I still have my flesh which pulls and tugs me toward sin. And it is indeed difficult to always deny your flesh. A perfect example is the disciples in the garden. I believe they truly wanted to stay awake and pray with Jesus, but their flesh was very weak and caused them to fall asleep.

Was it sin then? Or is it sin if your "weak flesh" causes you to watch porn on your computer when you are alone on your computer. (not saying you do; just an example). Do you see the difference in what you are saying: "weak flesh" = sleep" and "weak flesh" = porn" Which one is really the weak flesh, as defined by the Bible?
By your definition Jesus sinned many times:
He sinned when he sat by Jacob's well. He had weak flesh. He was tired, hungry, needed rest. His flesh was weak.
He sinned when he went to the cross. Under normal circumstances he would have been able to carry that cross. But he couldn't. He was too weak. He had weakened flesh, weakened by the torture he had already received.
Many times throughout his ministry we find that he was hungry, thirsty, tired, etc. He had weak flesh. Thus he sinned according to you.

Mat 26:41

Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

This verse refutes Total Inability, because it shows man's natural mind can be willing to obey God. It was their flesh that was the problem, it pulled and tugged them to sleep when they had been commanded to stay awake and pray.

I don't believe in Total Inability, but your example does not refute it. It is silly.

I can relate to this, we sometimes have long meetings at work and I find it very difficult to stay awake. I am just one of those persons that needs to move around. I want to stay awake and alert, but my body wants to go to sleep.

Then get a better sleep the night before.
My father was a pilot in the air force. What would happen if he dozed off just because he felt like sleeping?
"I can do all things through Christ which strengthen me."
In the Christian life, we do not run our life by our feelings.
When the alarm goes off in the morning I often "feel like" staying in bed, but I can't. I have work to do. And if you run your life by your feelings, you will lose your job.

And this is why we sin, many times our body wins the battle. Our flesh is not really sinful, it does not have a mind per se, it just "feels" desires and lusts. It is our mind and spirit that decides what we do. Unfortunately, we are very "accustomed" to give our flesh it's way, and we continue to do so often, even after we are saved.

If your body does not have "a mind per se," then your body is a corpse and you are dead with no life in you. You need to be buried before you cause a dreadful stink. You are just a pile of rotting elements.

 

[DHK]

Jesus had the same EXACT flesh as us. His flesh pulled and tugged him toward sin just as much as ours. The scriptures say he could be "touched" with the "feeling" of our infirmities. When he was in the wilderness, he was literally starving to eat, this is why the devil tempted him to turn stones to bread, he attacked Jesus at his weakest point. And as a man, Jesus had weakness or infirmity just like us. He had to eat, had to sleep, etc... He felt the pull and tug of temptation in "all points" as we do, yet he never sinned.

And this is what people mean when they say "sin nature", they are talking about that pull and tug our flesh exerts upon us. It is not a sin nature, it is our "flesh". And again, Jesus had the same exact flesh that we have.

People are born with a sin nature. They don't take your unorthodox view. To say that Jesus had a sin nature is to say that he is a sinner--blasphemy.
Why do we call it the "Adamic nature"? You haven't answered that yet.
In Adam we all sin. In Adam we die. By one man's disobedience we are made sinners. By one man's disobedience we have sinned. How much plainer can it be. But you reject the clear teaching of the Word of God.

No, Jesus was "made" of the "seed" of David according to the flesh. He wasn't simply a legal descendant of David, he was an actual physical descendant of David with David's DNA in his body.

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

What the scriptures call "seed" here is what we now understand to be our DNA. It is a code you inherit from your parents. You inherit 50% of your DNA from your father, and 50% from your mother. Of that 50% DNA you inherit from your mother, 50% come from her father. In fact, it was once believed that baldness was inherited from your mother's father, but I am not sure if they still believe that.

What was the 50% that he had from the father that was traceable back to David? Does the Holy Spirit have DNA? You are being ridiculous. He was born of a virgin. Mary did not have a man's DNA. You completely ignore the birth of Jesus and how he was conceived of the Holy Spirit.
You have your pet verses and ignore the rest of Scripture.

Jesus inherited a trace of David's DNA through Mary, in fact, he inherited DNA all the way back to Adam through Mary. This is that "seed" according to the "flesh". So Jesus was a real physical descendant of David.

This belief that sin is inherited physically from our father is nothing but pure superstition. Sin is something you do, not something you are.

Again, define Adamic nature.
We inherit a sin nature. How it is inherited is another question. I do not say that it is inherited through genes or DNA. However it is passed on, it is passed on through the man. It is the Adamic nature. That is why it was important for Christ to be born of a virgin. You reject that.

Have you ever studied the genealogies of the royal family of England.
In some cultures the belief is that once a person marries outside of royalty the royal line becomes contaminated. This long line of in-breeding over a period of years causes genetic defects such as hemophilia. This actually took place in the royal family in England some time ago. Unless new blood is introduced the blood line will be weakened, as will be the offspring. That is one of the reasons why incest is wrong.

Now Charles, the next in line to the throne, had married a commoner, Dianna, by whom she had two children: William and Harry.
The next in line would be William who married Kate, also a commoner.
Their children are so far removed from the problems their ancestors had that it is very unlikely that they will come down with any of those genetic defects.

Mary was a descendent of David. But the Holy Spirit was not. He is God.
On paper (in the gospels) are two genealogies: one of Joseph (in Matthew), and the other of Mary (in Luke). To satisfy all legalities both parents had to be descendants of David. As far as the public was concerned Jesus was a child of Joseph. They didn't know about the virgin birth.

Matthew 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
--He was the carpenter's son, the son of Joseph.
You try to force medical technology back into the first century which is ridiculous. The authors of the NT knew nothing of DNA. This makes your argument completely silly and ridiculous. As far as the public was concerned he was the son of Joseph. That is what it was on paper.

But their eyes were blind spiritually. If Jesus was born of Joseph he would be ineligible as the "Son of David" the Messiah. He would be depraved, a sinner by birth.

 

[Winman]

People are born with a sin nature. They don't take your unorthodox view. To say that Jesus had a sin nature is to say that he is a sinner--blasphemy.
Why do we call it the "Adamic nature"? You haven't answered that yet.
In Adam we all sin. In Adam we die. By one man's disobedience we are made sinners. By one man's disobedience we have sinned. How much plainer can it be. But you reject the clear teaching of the Word of God.

This is the ridiculous question begging fallacy, you assume your view is correct.

I have told you half a dozen times that I do not believe WE are born with a sin nature, so why in the world would I believe Jesus was born with a sin nature??

You need to pay attention more carefully, or else you are intentionally misrepresenting my view.

In Adam we all die is speaking of physical death only. The 15th chapter of 1st Corinthians is about the resurrection of our physical body, not spiritual death. But if it were about spiritual death then it would refute your view, as it says we all "die" which is FUTURE TENSE. That would mean we are born spiritually alive.

Scripture simply does not support your view whatsoever.

 

[Luke2427]

You have answered your own question. You go an extra 10 miles because you enjoy that Indian food better than a Big Mac at McDonalds. I might be the opposite, I might prefer the Big Mac.

But you answered your own question, you consider the Indian food better for some reason, either it tastes better, or is more nutritious, or perhaps other reasons, you get big servings at a low cost, etc...

Why are you playing stupid? You know these answers as well as I do.

Yes, and the reason people don't go the extra mile to avoid sin is because they do not prefer righteousness.

DING!DING!DING!

 

[annsni]

Yes, and the reason people don't go the extra mile to avoid sin is because they do not prefer righteousness.

DING!DING!DING!

:thumbsup: :wavey:

 

[Winman]

Yes, and the reason people don't go the extra mile to avoid sin is because they do not prefer righteousness.

DING!DING!DING!

People choose not to sin all the time. The vast majority of people do not want to be thieves and prefer to work for an honest living. Most people prefer to get married and not live in sin.

So you are absolutely wrong, more people prefer what is good than to evil.

 

[DHK]

People choose not to sin all the time. The vast majority of people do not want to be thieves and prefer to work for an honest living. Most people prefer to get married and not live in sin.

So you are absolutely wrong, more people prefer what is good than to evil.

Thou shalt not covet.
Thou shalt not lie.

 

[Winman]

Thou shalt not covet.
Thou shalt not lie.

Yes, we all sin, nobody is denying that. But man in general is more good than bad. Most people work for a living, if this theory were true, the vast majority of folks should be criminals. Even unsaved folks generally get married and do not like to live in sin. Most folks tell the truth most of the time.

If we were compelled to sin because we have a sin nature, the world would be FAR WORSE than it is now. It would be completely out of control.

You guys are really not thinking this out at all.