Herald said election wasn't required. I was pointing out the contradiction in his post.
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Why Does "Arminian Theology" get A bad name here On BB?
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
Herald said election wasn't required. I was pointing out the contradiction in his post.
You added the word....WHOLE....the text does not say that.
Hebrews 2.....and Hebrews 10 ...do tell us who Jesus died for.
preacher4truth
Active Member
He would be incorrect.
Why are you personally attacking people Amy? :laugh:
I mean, why are you being ACCUSED of it? :wavey:
convicted1
Guest
Thank you Brother for the correction of my adding the word "whole" into that verse. I was thinking off the top of my head(that's not always a good thing, either). But regardless, John the Baptist did state the "world" and not just some in the world.
Now onto Hebrews chapter 2:
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Here Apostle Paul stated that Jesus did in fact did for every man. Romans 5:6 will back this up, too.
Now look at the last verses of this very chapter. Pay very close attention to this:
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Jesus was made like His Brethern, the Jews. He came unto His own(Jews), and His own(Jews) received Him not. But as many as did receive Him(both Jew and Gentile), gave He them the power to become the sons of God, even those who believe on His name(John 1). That is why He took on the seed of Abraham. He came to save the Jews first, and after their rejecting Him, He then turned unto the Gentiles. We are now grafted into the natural Olive Tree, being a wild olive branch.
Now onto Hebrews chapter ten:
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Well in this chapter, Apostle Paul is talking about the transition that took place by Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. Before this, they had sacrifices, and if God found it acceptable, their sins were stayed a year. The next year, the same thing took place. And the next year.....And the next year....And the next year....you get my point. There was a remembrance of their sins each year. Now, after the works of the cross, our sins are blotted out by the blood of the Lamb. He did this once, and it is for all of eternity. He forgave us of our sins, and He has forgotten them, too. He will remember them no more. We(Gentiles) and santified, justified, purified, and our inner man is glorified by the works of the cross.
Last edited by a moderator:
Perhaps I have misunderstood you. Please clarify. Do you think that Christ forgave and forgot the sins of all Gentiles --that He has sanctified,justified purified them all without exception?!! If so,I take great exception to your belief.
convicted1
Guest
No. He only blots out those who call out to Him and He saves. But prior to this, we as a whole(the Gentile race), were considered dogs, without any hope in this world.
Doesn't the Apostle asks us to "make sure that our calling and election are true?"
that The lord indeed has the way to "prove" that we have been elected in Christ or not?
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
You need to look up the word "effectual" because it can't be both effectual and able to be resisted.
I take it in the sense of applying grace towards us, and the cals would say that makes us able to always accept jesus, does the intended effect God has for it, while Arms would see as enabling us to have the 'free will" again to accept reject Christ!
I asked you questions about this before. You said that" He blots out those [presumably their sins] who call out to Him and He saves."
If He died for each and every person past,present and future --why do the majority go to perdition? How can His death be meaningful for someone when they end up in second death? He died for them --suffered for them -but they enter eternal torment anyway.
If He really died for each and every person --head-for-head then all must be saved --hence a Universalist theology. I don't know how you can get around this. If He died in their [all humanity]place --substitutionary atonement --they are forgiven,justified. The Lord is their intercessor. They cannot go through the second death.
But non-cals i.e. Arminians say that Christ did not die for anyone in particular --everyone in general. It makes no sense.
But all true Christians agree with this --all of the elect --and they alone will go to glory --any genuine Christian will have to admit that it is indeed true that Christ died for His elect. Only those are effectually redeemed --it can't be said of anyone else that Christ is supposed to have died for yet end up in the Lake of Fire.
Any real believer will have to confess that it will only be those whose names were written in the Lamb's Book of Life before the creation of the world --will be saved.
preacher4truth
Active Member
If this in fact what arminianism teaches, it is simply another flaw in this non-cal theology.
Galtaians 2:20 refutes this error.
Scripture Taken From 2011 NIV
For the sake of viewers, I will cite the second part of the verse that you referenced.
"The life I now live in the body,I live by faith in the Son of God,who loved me and gave himself for me."
For the sake of viewers, I will cite the second part of the verse that you referenced.
"The life I now live in the body,I live by faith in the Son of God,who loved me and gave himself for me."
quantumfaith
Active Member
And when he says, the sin OF THE WORLD, He extends this favour indiscriminately to the whole human race; that the Jews might not think that He had been sent to them alone. But hence we infer that the whole world is involved in the same condemnation; and that as all men without exception are guilty of unrighteousness before God, they need to be reconciled to Him. John the Baptist, therefore, by speaking generally of the sin of the world, intended to impress upon us the conviction of our own misery, and to exhort us to seek the remedy. Now our duty is to embrace the benefit which is offered to all, that each of us may be convinced that there is nothing to hinder him from obtaining reconciliation in Christ, provided that he comes to Him by the guidance of faith.
John Calvin
John Calvin, "Commentary on the Gospel According to John," in Calvin's Commentaries, vol. XVII, trans. Rev. William Pringle (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1993), 64
John Calvin
John Calvin, "Commentary on the Gospel According to John," in Calvin's Commentaries, vol. XVII, trans. Rev. William Pringle (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1993), 64
So QF,do you think that that quote somehow refutes the views of Calvinists? It does no such thing.
quantumfaith
Active Member
I am not saying that.....I am saying that there, in my mind, are alternatives to "yalls" views. My desire is not to "refute" per se. If you notice, most of my commentary is directed at "how" others comment toward their theological "opponents". That being said, you know I do not sit on the same side of the issue as you do.
BTW, I do not think Galatians 2:20 refutes anything related to this. I read it as a simple declaration of Paul. Every believer can and should make this same declaration just as did Paul.
quantumfaith
Active Member
What many five-point Calvinists demand from their four-point Calvinist and non-Calvinist brothers and sisters is how could God send unbelievers to hell if Christ's atoning sacrifice was made for them. This erroneous question has two very basic problems: 1) the assumption that Christ's atonement is automatically applied to anyone; and 2) the assumption that the application of Christ's atonement is unconditional.
1) Christ Jesus died on behalf of the whole world. That much has been sufficiently proved from Scripture thus far. God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself (2 Cor. 5:19). Humanity was separated from God because of sin (Eph. 2:1). God reconciled the world back to Himself through Christ's sacrifice, so that, and this is crucial for a proper understanding of the Arminian or non-Calvinist position, only by faith in Jesus Christ is one atoned and counted righteous by God. Christ Jesus did the work of atonement for all people, but only those whose faith in Him will have that atonement applied to them personally.
The Holy Spirit is now at work in the hearts and minds of sinners, convicting them of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16:8-11), setting sinners free from their bondage to sin in order for them to freely trust in Christ Jesus. Though the world has been reconciled back to God through Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 5:19), only by faith in Christ Jesus is one saved and atoned by His blood. Paul admitted that God reconciled the world through Christ, and then urged the Corinthians to be reconciled to God (2 Cor. 5:20). Clearly, there is a distinction between the work God did in Christ generally for all people, and that each person is responsible to be reconciled personally to God through faith in Jesus Christ.
2) We must not assume that Christ's sacrifice saves anyone apart from personal faith in Him. Salvation, atonement, justification and forgiveness, imputed righteousness, adoption, etc. depends upon, and solely upon, faith in Jesus Christ. Yes, Jesus Christ "paid the price" for the sins of all people, but not automatically. The atonement, the "price," is applied only to the one whose faith is in Christ Jesus. Hence there is no such thing as a "double payment."
1) Christ Jesus died on behalf of the whole world. That much has been sufficiently proved from Scripture thus far. God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself (2 Cor. 5:19). Humanity was separated from God because of sin (Eph. 2:1). God reconciled the world back to Himself through Christ's sacrifice, so that, and this is crucial for a proper understanding of the Arminian or non-Calvinist position, only by faith in Jesus Christ is one atoned and counted righteous by God. Christ Jesus did the work of atonement for all people, but only those whose faith in Him will have that atonement applied to them personally.
The Holy Spirit is now at work in the hearts and minds of sinners, convicting them of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16:8-11), setting sinners free from their bondage to sin in order for them to freely trust in Christ Jesus. Though the world has been reconciled back to God through Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 5:19), only by faith in Christ Jesus is one saved and atoned by His blood. Paul admitted that God reconciled the world through Christ, and then urged the Corinthians to be reconciled to God (2 Cor. 5:20). Clearly, there is a distinction between the work God did in Christ generally for all people, and that each person is responsible to be reconciled personally to God through faith in Jesus Christ.
2) We must not assume that Christ's sacrifice saves anyone apart from personal faith in Him. Salvation, atonement, justification and forgiveness, imputed righteousness, adoption, etc. depends upon, and solely upon, faith in Jesus Christ. Yes, Jesus Christ "paid the price" for the sins of all people, but not automatically. The atonement, the "price," is applied only to the one whose faith is in Christ Jesus. Hence there is no such thing as a "double payment."
Well said QF:love2:
quantumfaith
Active Member
thank you, but I "copied" from the following:
http://evangelicalarminians.org/birch.Arminius-vs-Calvin/Limited-atonement