Why Does "Arminian Theology" get A bad name here On BB?

Jf

The cross work is, was , and will be eternally perfect. Nothing can be added to it. It is not in any way potential. The word I think you are looking for is sufficient......

When we speak of actual substitution.....paid in full....that means if you personally had 9 million and 36 sins......Jesus would have been offered as the substitute for each and every sin......not just sin in general.

He died with his people in mind...not one will be lost

 

Yes and no. Jesus did die for the elect, correct. But again(now I am going to sound like a broken record :laugh, Christ died for the ungodly. It did not say the ungodly elect, just ungodly, nothing more, nothing less.

If He died for the elect only, then by looking at Romans 5:6, then only the elect are ungodly. What would that make the non-elect. There is no way anyone can be worse than being ungodly. If He died for the ungodly, and died only for the elect, then the non-elect are godly? No. He died for every man, and those who put their trust in Him, He will exhalt, sanctify, justify, and save.

 

Willis,

I did this once before, maybe you did not see it; look at the parts i highlight,, it tells us which ungodly paul is describing here.....look and re-read the passage.

Willis....can you see how it is only speaking of the justified?
the us the we tell us which ungodly persons he is speaking of.

ungodly in contrast to a good or righteous man vs7....do you see it Willis:wavey:

The ungodly who are unsaved and not justified...do not have the Holy Spirit given unto them vs5
the unsaved do not glory in tribulation vs 3
the unsaved cannot say were...as in verse 8.......take a look Willis

 

Vs. 10 throws a monkey wrench in your interpretation.

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

How can you be the elect and the enemy of God at the same time? Doesn't make sense.

And Paul should have said "us" in Rom 5:6. Saying "the ungodly" means everyone.

 

Winman,
read the whole passage together.....look at the descriptive ...we ,us

the Apostle Paul himself was an enemy of God,killing christians...yet he was also elect before the world was. All of God's elect are ungodly rebels until God's grace and love,and mercy gives us a new heart....
That is exactly why paul says we ....were enemies, we were without strength.

watch now;

Can you see how the whole passage fits together? re-read the whole passage....

All men are sinners...yes....all men are ungodly ...yes.....but he is not talking about all the unsaved.....he has been speaking about those sinners who God has justified and reconciled to Himself...those sinners who formerly were rebels, who he has saved, justified and have peace with God.

Winman.....I know that you and others read this as general,and potential....
but to see it.......you have to read it as specific about those sinners, those ungodly, who are actually saved now.......try it....you might like it:wavey:

 

Well Brother, Apostle Paul was saying us and we because he was addressing the church at Rome.

Romans 1
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.


It is the same way with the two letters sent to the church at Corinth, the one sent to Galatia, to Phillipi(sp?) etc. So, of course Christ died for them, because it states elsewhere that Christ loved the church, and even died for her. But, here, Apostle Paul broadens the "scope" a bit, and states that Christ died for the ungodly. Christ died to make the way for us Gentiles to be gathered into the flock as well. Without His atoning work of the cross, we'd be hopeless even to this very day. Right here is where the elect comes in. He chose us, the Gentiles, because the Jews rejected His only begotten Son, full of Grace and Truth.


Now, look at two people who DoGers catergorize as non-elects. First we have the rich young ruler. When he came to Jesus, it states that Jesus loved Him. He then asked Jesus what must he do i to inherit eternal life. Jesus told him the very things that he needed to do, and he walked away sorrowful, because he loved his possessions more than eternal life. Second, look at Jezebel. She was a wicked woman, if ever there was one. And yet, in Revelation, God gave her a space to repent, and she repented not. So here are two people who were given a "chance", but they failed to "seize the day". So it shows that those who die lost, chose to die in that state, not yielding to the unction of the Holy Ghost.

 

Willis, my brother;

If romans 5;1 said this you might be correct.....but he says it in romans 5:6

start in verse 1 being justified we have peace with God;

Willis......the ungodly who remain ungodly are not justified,and do not have peace...I just posted to Winman on this a minute ago.....i would really like for you to see what i see here as i believe i have come to truth here.

Willis ...we do agree that Jesus came into the world to save sinners 1tim 1;15.

but here in chapter 5...he is as you pointed out writing to the saints, the church..how God has saved and justified some of the ungodly.

 

I disagree with you. It is perfectly natural for Paul to say "us" and "we" to the believers he was addressing as Willis pointed out. That in no way proves Jesus died for the elect only. And I do not believe anyone is elect until they believe, although I believe God knew who the elect would be according to his foreknowlege. I also understand foreknowledge very differently than you and do not believe foreknowledge determines who will be saved, only God foreknows those who actually do believe and get saved. Anyone can believe, and those who do are the elect.

 

Then it stands to reason that anyone can loose their salvation too, right?

 

I will stand by what I have posted.We do not elect ourself.You correctly identify why we differ.The biblical view of foreknowledge is
Whom he did foreknow......not what he did foreknow.....God elects before the world was.....He does not wait for us to elect ourselves

well ....you seem to only want to contend against the truth here...I cannot do more than post the truth and point out where you could see it.
Paul is explaining why some sinners get saved, some from among the ungodly. In chapters 1-3:21...he has concluded all under God's wrath...
In these chapters he is explaining why and how God saves his elect.
It cannot be any clearer is you read it, without trying to resist:thumbsup:

 

To add to this, Brother Iconoclast left off responding to my two examples of who had an opportunity, and did not repent, the rich young ruler, and Jezebel. If I understand it right, the DoGers state that only the elect will be given the opportunity to repent. These two were, and one walked away sorrowful, not wanting to give up his worldly possessions, and the other, was given a space to repent, and she repented not.

To be completely fair to him, he may not have seen it, or he forgot to give a reply to my two examples.


Furthermore, read all the examples of where Jesus passed by people. Most instances, the only time He came to them, was after they called out to Him. The woman with the twelve years issue of blood, Zaccheus(sp?), the Syrophoenician woman with the sick daughter, the man possessed with the legion of devils, are a few that come to mind. If they had not called out as He passed by, He would have kept on walking.

 

Ah yes, but if you are exposed to the Gospel and you allow the Holy Spirit to work, you will find yourself under conviction. Then you will be allowed to respond to God's grace if you choose. Praise God!

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Willis,

I was trying to focus completely on Romans 5. I did not want to bounce out of romans ...till we chew this over a bit.....did you see what i was posting Willis????

No...... we preach to all men Willis, freely offering the blood of Jesus.
God's gospel and God's grace can be resisted....but we believe that with the elect...it will not always be resisted.....they will be and are effectually called into the kingdom.

 

Well Robert,
It looks as if you are totally in control; of the salvation you speak of.

The one we speak of has God being in total control......see Ezk 34....
God says 16-17 times I will seek, I will save.:wavey:

 

Okay. I thought you might have been on the road, and responded while on a respite, and either did not have time, or did not see what I had posted. Yes, I did see what you posted, but not in agreement with you....which I am sure you already knew before you posted it.

Sorry about not making that statement clearer. What I really meant by that statement is that the DoGers believe that only the elect will ever be saved. So, by that line of reasoning, only the elect would be able to repent. Therefore, if the elect are the only ones ever offered repentence, then Jezebel must have been an unsaved elect, because she was given a space to repent, and she repented not. That is what I was driving at, Brother. Sorry again about not being clearer.

 

Okay, answer this for me, please? Why doesn't He save the elect, even when they reject Him? He is in total control, absolutely, but He wants us in an humbled state. God resisteth the proud, but giveth Grace to the humble.

 

Willis;

The last year I am mostly driving coast to coast.....I am in oregon now.heading east, was up in tacoma washington this week so I do not always respond so quickly...I try to answer all posts if i can, so be patient with me.
If I miss a post..just let me know.

Sure thing......Willis...remember all those who are elected were sinners, even as others. The convicting and drawing work of the Spirit of God humbles all christians......God does resist the proud.

 

Well then I turn again to Paul who in his pride before conversion actually pridefully killed Christians. So why did God choose to save him?

 

God desires or wills to save everyone, even the most wicked person, but to be saved they must submit to God and trust in Jesus alone to save them. Paul was trusting in his own ability to keep the law to save him, and he believed this was the correct way to gain salvation. This is why he persecuted Christians, he thought what Jesus and the Christians taught was false doctrine. But when Jesus appeared to him on the road to Damascus he realized Jesus was the Son of God and the truth. He believed, and immediately his attitude toward Jesus and Christians changed.

You cannot have a change of heart unless you first believe. Paul couldn't love Christians as long as he believed they were teaching a lie. But the moment he realized and believed they were teaching the truth his attitude toward Jesus and Christians changed and he himself began to preach Jesus.