Why I am #NEVERTRUMP

[TCassidy]

Are you making a righteous judgment there?

No, just making a truthful observation.

Please point out how you judged that I was being self-righteous in my reasons for being #NEVERTRUMP?

Your self-righteousness is in your condemnation of Trump for his sins but without an in-depth understanding of your own sin. That is the very definition of self-righteousness. You think his sin is worse than your own. You condemn him for his sin but you do not condemn yourself for being just as sinful. So you judge him based on your own self-righteous assumption of your own spiritual superiority.

 

[blessedwife318]

No, just making a truthful observation.

Your self-righteousness is in your condemnation of Trump for his sins but without an in-depth understanding of your own sin. That is the very definition of self-righteousness. You think his sin is worse than your own. You condemn him for his sin but you do not condemn yourself for being just as sinful. So you judge him based on your own self-righteous assumption of your own spiritual superiority.

I'm an absolute wretch. I'm just as deserving of hell as anyone, because I have sinned against God in more ways than I could ever mention. It is only by God's Grace and His Grace alone that I can come before Him as His child pleading the blood of Jesus Christ for my forgiveness. This is not something I would ever dare deny. And if I have please quote me so I can make that right with God. So again I ask for your evidence of my self-righteous judgment, so that I can get that right with God.

So until you show evidence of such, you are now guilty of what you criticize others of, pretending to know my heart and how I view my own wretchedness.

 

[TCassidy]

break fellowship with him until he repents.

And how do you know he has not repented?

Do you really think he is not greedy?

I am not the one judging him.

I still say he swindled his investors out of their money since he left them holding the bag when he, or his business, filed bankruptcy.

He did not file bankruptcy. And the businesses he "owned" were run by a board of directors elected by the share holders. And I would avoid accusing him of having "swindled" his investors. That accusation may be actionable. Not just against you but also against the Baptist Board. I highly recommend you edit that accusation out of your post.

But he did try, even if he lost. Or let me rephrase he used his money as a crony capitalist to influence Atlantic City and lost.

And you have proof that he somehow influenced the city (bribery?) to file the suit? You are aware, are you not, that the issue started long before Trump Entertainment even owned the rest of the property? It was owned by Bob Guccione who offered Coking $1 million for her property in order to build the Penthouse Boardwalk Hotel and Casino?

But once again you prove that you are uninformed as to the truth and are just going by the propaganda put out by the Clinton campaign.

 

[TCassidy]

So again I ask for your evidence of my self-righteous judgment, so that I can get that right with God.

You judge others as being spiritually inferior to yourself, as I have pointed out several times now.

 

[blessedwife318]

You judge others as being spiritually inferior to yourself, as I have pointed out several times now.

Still waiting for a quote

 

[InTheLight]

He financed his casino with junk bonds because he couldn't get traditional financing from a bank.

 

[blessedwife318]

Note to anyone still reading this thread: It has evolved from attacking Clinton, to attacking the length of my OP, to attacking Cruz, to attacking me. Not once has anyone actually gone through and tried to refute my points made in the OP.

 

[StefanM]

And where does the bible require us to ask God for forgiveness? We are told to confess sin, not ask for forgiveness. If we believe, our sins were already forgiven on the Cross.

When has he ever said he has never confessed his sin? I can't help but think you are conflating confession of sin (which is biblical) with asking God for forgiveness (which is not biblical).

Again, how do you know or when did he say he has never confessed his sin?

He was raised Presbyterian, and still claims Presbyterian as his church affiliation. The Presbyterian liturgy (Book of Common Worship, page 53) says:

Merciful God,
we confess that we have sinned against you
in thought, word, and deed,
by what we have done,
and by what we have left undone.
We have not loved you
with our whole heart and mind and strength.
We have not loved our neighbors as ourselves.
In your mercy forgive what we have been,
help us amend what we are,
and direct what we shall be,
so that we may delight in your will
and walk in your ways,
to the glory of your holy name.

The problem I have with such a liturgy is that it can so easily become nothing more than a religious ritual, with no real meaning to the heart and soul of the person reciting it.

But if just one he recited that liturgy in a church service, and really meant it, does that not meet your criteria for confession of sin?

Let's talk turkey for a moment. I am not a great Trump supporter. In fact he is the worst possible candidate, from those who were in the running a year ago, for the GOP to put forward as this election's Presidential candidate. In my opinion he is an arrogant, self-serving pig.

But what grates on me, as a Christian, and as a Pastor (now retired) is the self-righteous condemnation of the man based on sound bites and media coverage.

To me it smacks of Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed to himself like this: ‘God, I thank you, that I am not like other men, extortionists, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector' (or politician).

I am not convinced that confession is that separate from asking for forgiveness, but I will grant you the technical distinction, assuming your definitions.

I know it's descriptive and not necessarily normative, but Psalm 51, to me, seems to be a good example of seeking forgiveness of sins.

That being said, I see your point, but I don't think Trump would make such a technical argument. I wish he had also been asked if he confesses his sins; that would have provided some clarity for this discussion.

 

[StefanM]

Why should I? I don't know you and know absolutely nothing about you, so I have no rational reason to assume you are lost.

If I did, then we would both be wrong, and guilty of judgmentalism.

On the first point, I said you "may" assume I'm lost because that's your prerogative. If I appear to be lost, then you can assume so. It's not a judgment, just a provisional consideration.

For the last part, I would hope you would assume I was lost when entering your church because I would need to hear the gospel. That's all I meant by what I said. I'd rather assume everyone who enters is lost until I have reason to believe otherwise because every person needs to be presented with the gospel. I hope that makes sense. I'm not sure I'm getting it out clearly--my mind can go a little bonkers sometimes.

 

[InTheLight]

Note to anyone still reading this thread: It has evolved from attacking Clinton, to attacking the length of my OP, to attacking Cruz, to attacking me. Not once has anyone actually gone through and tried to refute my points made in the OP.

That's because there is no refutation to be had. The only responses you will get are:

But...but...but....Hillary.
and
But the Supreme Court.

You will not get an argument extolling the virtues of voting FOR Trump, just that you should vote for evil (just not as evil as Hillary.)

 

[TCassidy]

I have reason to believe otherwise because every person needs to be presented with the gospel.

You enter the church I pastored and you would hear the gospel. No message was ever preached that did not include the gospel. So I don't have to make any assumptions. Everybody in ear shot of the pulpit gets the gospel.

 

[InTheLight]

You enter the church I pastored and you would hear the gospel. No message was ever preached that did not include the gospel. So I don't have to make any assumptions. Everybody in ear shot of the pulpit gets the gospel.

Why?

 

[Lewis]

Utah, yeah. But Colorado? Minnesota? Don't think so.

There are about 290 LDS congregations in Colorado. That is not beans.

 

[Lewis]

Considering that Trump attacked Cruz's wife and his father during the primaries I am inclined the think that would release him from his promise. My reasoning for this statement is as follows. Ephesians 5:25-28 says:
25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
How would Cruz be showing his love for his wife by endorsing the man that attacked her? That would not be a loving action towards his wife.
Scripture also says in Exodus 20:12
Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.
How would endorsing a man you hinted that his father was involved in a presidential assassination be honoring to his father.
Finally, Ephesians 5:11 says
Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.
Trump has exposed that there are many areas of darkness in his character. By supporting Trump Cruz would be breaking this commandment from God as well.
To recap, If Cruz was to support Trump he would be breaking the command to love his wife as Christ loves the church, he would be breaking the command to honor his father by joining to a man who had slandered him, and he would be breaking the command to not take part in the unfruitful works of darkness.

That is a lot of tap dancing. But Cruz and the other losing candidates pledged to endorse the RNC candidate.

 

[blessedwife318]

That is a lot of tap dancing. But Cruz and the other losing candidates pledged to endorse the RNC candidate.

I never heard him promise to "endorse" the nominee only that he would "support" the nominee. If you could find a video oh him saying he would "endorse " the nominee that would be something but until than I will ask how has Cruz not supported Trump? He congratulated him on winning, he has said he does not want to be a write-in candidate and he told his supporters not to stay home but to get out and vote up and down ballots for the candidate that loves Freedom and the Constitution. So how has he not supported Trump?

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[Lewis]

But please do tell me how Cruz has not "supported" Trump? He congratulated him for winning, he has made it clear that he does not want to be a write-in candidate, and he asked people not to stay home, but to vote up and down the ballot for freedom and constitution loving candidates.

You know as well as anyone that Cruz refused to endorse Trump.

Also note that Trump said he didn't want nor need Cruz's "support?"

Regardless, Trump allowed Sen Cruz to come to the convention and speak his mind. This was generosity as far as I am concerned.

After Cruz dropped out of the primaries, Trump said, "Ted Cruz, I don’t know if he likes me or doesn’t like me, but he is one hell of a competitor. He is a tough, smart guy. And he has got an amazing future."

So that was Trump's way of trying to make peace with him. He made an effort.

 

[blessedwife318]

You know as well as anyone that Cruz refused to endorse Trump.


Regardless, Trump allowed Sen Cruz to come to the convention and speak his mind. This was generosity as far as I am concerned.

1. I didn't say "endorsed" I said "support" How has Cruz not "supported" Trump?

2. Trump didn't have a choice about Cruz speaking since Cruz won more than 8 states. So know it's not generous when he didn't have a choice.



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[StefanM]

You enter the church I pastored and you would hear the gospel. No message was ever preached that did not include the gospel. So I don't have to make any assumptions. Everybody in ear shot of the pulpit gets the gospel.

Then I think we are on the same page, really. I just meant that I would say to deliver the gospel to every person as if they had not accepted it. I didn't mean assuming anything other than that.

 

[TCassidy]

Why?

I love to tell the story of unseen things above,
Of Jesus and His glory, of Jesus and His love.
I love to tell the story, because I know ’tis true;
It satisfies my longings as nothing else can do.

Refrain

I love to tell the story, ’twill be my theme in glory,
To tell the old, old story of Jesus and His love.

I love to tell the story; more wonderful it seems
Than all the golden fancies of all our golden dreams.
I love to tell the story, it did so much for me;
And that is just the reason I tell it now to thee.

Refrain

I love to tell the story; ’tis pleasant to repeat
What seems, each time I tell it, more wonderfully sweet.
I love to tell the story, for some have never heard
The message of salvation from God’s own holy Word.

Refrain

I love to tell the story, for those who know it best
Seem hungering and thirsting to hear it like the rest.
And when, in scenes of glory, I sing the new, new song,
’Twill be the old, old story that I have loved so long.

Refrain

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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