37818
Well-Known Member
False. Everyone has faith in many things. Just that the lost do not comprehend the gospel, 2 Corinthians 4:3.
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why I am not a Calvinist
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You can take it however you want to. Again I would not trade my theology for anything you have offered.
You can take it any way you want to JonC. You claim to have gone to seminary...maybe it is not too late to ask for a refund, because either you missed a class or two, or they instilled some ideas that seem to be off track.
The theology you try and offer is confused at best from what some us see.
You question my theology, that is not a surprise, because you do not grasp it.
Not mine only, but Biblicist thrashed your ideas each and every time, as have several others. I am not here to judge people in that way, however. You seem obsessed with these notions. Give it a rest JonC.
I am here to try and help people and discuss things of the kingdom of God. You seem to have another agenda.
You do what you want to do. It does not look like it is working for you, but nevertheless, you go about things your own way.
Have I suggested to you that I want any advice from you?
If I do I will ask you JonC....if not try and help other people who might like your posting
you are speaking of a human trust or a human faith.
I am speaking of a Saving faith that comes from God. they are not the same.
37818
Well-Known Member
Arguably, comes down to how one defines irresistable grace. I have Titus 2:11 and Acts of the Apostles 7:51, in mind. We also do not agree on how Titus 2:11, should be understood.
37818
Well-Known Member
Saving faith comes from God how? Claimed faith either comes through evidence or wishful thinking. No one can know anything without faith.
Rockson
Active Member
Did it say it's not possible for men to understand the gospel? Or did it rather say, "if our gospel be hid it is hid to them that are lost". What do many of the lost choose to walk in? Pride or the thought of being independent from God. Such would be willfully being ignorant which keeps them away from truth. Doesn't mean they have to be but they choose to be.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Challenge: find salvation in the flesh.
“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5:19–21 (KJV 1900)
Find salvation in the Spirit;
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.” Galatians 5:22–23 (KJV 1900)
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
The big problem with your understanding in every instance involves free will being read into the passage. As a result, you see NT scripture as law and salvation based on obedience. If you could disprove free will from scripture, all of your interpretations would reflect salvation by grace alone, with faith being the common trait shared among the saved.
If you read the bible knowing people are spiritually dead and cannot believe, much less want to, the passages call for grace and not free will to make them work.
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Why so antagonistic? I was explaining the meaning of ἱλασμός (the tense – a propitiation, something that propitiates) to another member.
Apparently you did not like the definition and would rather explore what it is that Christ propitiated sins, but I was speaking of 1 John 2:2 (which has Christ, not human sins, as the subject). There is a time for topical commentary and a time to examine the text.
I have gone to seminary and am grateful for that education. But that does not mean I have a superior knowledge of the Word. I think of people like A.W. Tozer who never had a formal education. We can all share our understanding here – that is the design of this forum.
Members should not try to shut down anyone who disagrees with them through insults and false accusations. As Christians we are called to exhibit a Christ-likeness in our actions. We need to be doers of the Word and not hearers alone.
I’ve read several posts where you tend to become hateful when you arrive at a point you cannot defend your view. You’ve resorted to false claims and insults (against me, @Revmitchell ,and others who would disagree with anything you've posted. I suspect it is because you have a few areas that are supported on shaky ground. Perhaps it would be best to listen to other people and shore up those weak areas.
My prayer is that you will realize you have created "enemies" of people who have your interest in mind. We all disagree on some topics, but none of us are authorized to persecute another. When we do this we persecute Christ. I pray that you will choose to walk in the Light with your interactions on this forum. If you do this here, I think that it will extend to the "real world". This is my goal as well. Do not continue to walk in darkness.
But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; for the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God. Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls. But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves. James 1:19-22
It is defined as grace that is not ultimately resisted by the elect. It is an inner working that is effectual.
I do not know where you get the idea that I've denied the idea that propitiation means averting God's anger by an offering. My post that you rejected, that started you off on the insults, was that "propitiation" is an atoning sacrifice that averts God's anger.
The issue here is that you've invented objections and projected them on me because we disagreed on other issues.
Regarding the word “propitiation”, the definition I offered is from Bill Mounce (Mounce’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words).
The view that I hold regarding the topic is the view shared by many like John Piper, J.I. Packer, and D.A. Carson.
I strongly suggest you consider reading Grasping God’s Word by Duvall and Hays. I know you may think it silly, but we need to learn how to read Scripture. Biblical illiteracy is one of the main issues in our churches today.
Here are a few commentaries that may help: The Epistles of John by Howard Marshall; The Letters of John and Jude by William Barclay; 1-3 John by Robert Yargough; 1&2 Peter, 1,2,&3 John and Jude by David Walls.
Here are a few other resources: Biblical Greek Exegesis by Guthrie and Duvall; Basics of Biblical Greek Grammar by William Mounce; How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth by Gordon Fee.
JonC,
These posts came from your keyboard
The error some make in 2 Jn 2:2 is ignoring the object of the actual words in favor of theological eisegesis
Extensive commentary is not necessary (words have meaning).
We cannot explain away words (that is my complaint). I believe you ate missing the point.
It is wrong to assume Scripture redefines words
to make some sort of code to be decoded through ones theology.
It is, in fact, biblical illiteracy. These words had a meaning to the audience and that was why they were chosen.
I encourage you, @Iconoclast , to lean a little less on commentaries.
Given the extent of your use it appears you search for pices if writing that agree with you.
This is a very dangerous way to do theology.
. Scripture uses words that have meanings - words that the inteded audience would understand.
What you are expecting us to believe is John uses a tense wrongly (points to sin and man rather than Christ) in 2 John.
This is eisegesis by definition. Words have meanings. Scripture uses real words, not "biblical words" removed from their actual meaning.
My suggestion is that you take a break from commentaries and simply read and study Scripture- NOT as a companion to theology but as its source. When you do not understand a word look it up (but do not superimpose an entire commentary into a passage as you will miss the point of the actual text.
The issue is one of biblical literacy.
Unfortunately too many people rely on commentaries and the opinions of men who "tickle their ears", so to speak.
What I am saying is that we need to study Scripture rather than follow whomever "tickles our ears".
Biblical literacy HAS to be learned or truth (regardless of dictrine) dies.
The first question we ask when interpreting a text is "what did this mean to the original audience". Words have meaning.
We can't link a word to a commentary on the meaning of a passage and declare it the "biblical meaning". That is not being honest to the text of Scripture.
I think it should be obvious to anyone with a basic understanding of the language.
I disagree that you are justified in the claim that my view on the topic (which I share with Spurgeon, Keller, Piper, Carson, and Packet) as somehow coming up short. You make t bg e claim often, but when called out you come up short on validating the accusation.
You really need to stop placing yourself as some standard others must strive to meet. This is not an echo chamber.
But while I share the views of these scholars, they do not dictate my understanding.
It is unfortunate you cannot seem to dialogue and remain faithful to God's instruction of how we are to dialogue.
ou have never been able to provide a point where I depart from orthodoxy on this point, yet you find it appropriate to insult my own scholarship (which ironically exceeds yours).
It is even more ironic in that where we disagree is in passages you turn away from the actual text of Scripture in favor of theological summaries.
Members should not try to shut down anyone who disagrees with them through insults and false accusations. As Christians we are called to exhibit a Christ-likeness in our actions. We need to be doers of the Word and not hearers alone.
I’ve read several posts where you tend to become hateful when you arrive at a point you cannot defend your view. You’ve resorted to false claims and insults (against me, @Revmitchell ,and others who would disagree with anything you've posted. I suspect it is because you have a few areas that are supported on shaky ground. Perhaps it would be best to listen to other people and shore up those weak areas.
My prayer is that you will realize you have created "enemies" of people who have your interest in mind. We all disagree on some topics, but none of us are authorized to persecute another. When we do this we persecute Christ. I pray that you will choose to walk in the Light with your interactions on this forum. If you do this here, I think that it will extend to the "real world". This is my goal as well. Do not continue to walk in darkness.
These are just an example of what you send towards me, and post openly day after day.
You set yourself up as trying to help and give advice when in reality you are attempting to be condescending and insulting. You are the one making accusations and insults
I do not need or want your ideas coming my way.
Stop it JonC. I have said a dozen times now...if I want "your help" i will ask for it.
This kind of "help" is not wanted. It reminds me of this;
Gen 4:7a
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.
These posts came from your keyboard
The error some make in 2 Jn 2:2 is ignoring the object of the actual words in favor of theological eisegesis
Extensive commentary is not necessary (words have meaning).
We cannot explain away words (that is my complaint). I believe you ate missing the point.
It is wrong to assume Scripture redefines words
to make some sort of code to be decoded through ones theology.
It is, in fact, biblical illiteracy. These words had a meaning to the audience and that was why they were chosen.
I encourage you, @Iconoclast , to lean a little less on commentaries.
Given the extent of your use it appears you search for pices if writing that agree with you.
This is a very dangerous way to do theology.
. Scripture uses words that have meanings - words that the inteded audience would understand.
What you are expecting us to believe is John uses a tense wrongly (points to sin and man rather than Christ) in 2 John.
This is eisegesis by definition. Words have meanings. Scripture uses real words, not "biblical words" removed from their actual meaning.
My suggestion is that you take a break from commentaries and simply read and study Scripture- NOT as a companion to theology but as its source. When you do not understand a word look it up (but do not superimpose an entire commentary into a passage as you will miss the point of the actual text.
The issue is one of biblical literacy.
Unfortunately too many people rely on commentaries and the opinions of men who "tickle their ears", so to speak.
What I am saying is that we need to study Scripture rather than follow whomever "tickles our ears".
Biblical literacy HAS to be learned or truth (regardless of dictrine) dies.
The first question we ask when interpreting a text is "what did this mean to the original audience". Words have meaning.
We can't link a word to a commentary on the meaning of a passage and declare it the "biblical meaning". That is not being honest to the text of Scripture.
I think it should be obvious to anyone with a basic understanding of the language.
I disagree that you are justified in the claim that my view on the topic (which I share with Spurgeon, Keller, Piper, Carson, and Packet) as somehow coming up short. You make t bg e claim often, but when called out you come up short on validating the accusation.
You really need to stop placing yourself as some standard others must strive to meet. This is not an echo chamber.
But while I share the views of these scholars, they do not dictate my understanding.
It is unfortunate you cannot seem to dialogue and remain faithful to God's instruction of how we are to dialogue.
ou have never been able to provide a point where I depart from orthodoxy on this point, yet you find it appropriate to insult my own scholarship (which ironically exceeds yours).
It is even more ironic in that where we disagree is in passages you turn away from the actual text of Scripture in favor of theological summaries.
Members should not try to shut down anyone who disagrees with them through insults and false accusations. As Christians we are called to exhibit a Christ-likeness in our actions. We need to be doers of the Word and not hearers alone.
I’ve read several posts where you tend to become hateful when you arrive at a point you cannot defend your view. You’ve resorted to false claims and insults (against me, @Revmitchell ,and others who would disagree with anything you've posted. I suspect it is because you have a few areas that are supported on shaky ground. Perhaps it would be best to listen to other people and shore up those weak areas.
My prayer is that you will realize you have created "enemies" of people who have your interest in mind. We all disagree on some topics, but none of us are authorized to persecute another. When we do this we persecute Christ. I pray that you will choose to walk in the Light with your interactions on this forum. If you do this here, I think that it will extend to the "real world". This is my goal as well. Do not continue to walk in darkness.
These are just an example of what you send towards me, and post openly day after day.
You set yourself up as trying to help and give advice when in reality you are attempting to be condescending and insulting. You are the one making accusations and insults
I do not need or want your ideas coming my way.
Stop it JonC. I have said a dozen times now...if I want "your help" i will ask for it.
This kind of "help" is not wanted. It reminds me of this;
Gen 4:7a
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.
I wonder about "perseverance" I knew a man who went from sinner to "saint" back to sinner. This man was a drunk & a letch, who claimed one day to have come to Jesus, & within a year, began preaching in his home, holding small neighborhood services. I went to several, & he was quite good. he preached straight from the Bible, clearly and concisely & was not afraid to call a sin a sin. His little congregation grew til he & they rented an old empty commercial building & made it into a sanctuary. The man led around a hundred people to Christ in 2 years or so.
Then, he ceased to conduct services any more, passing the duty to others, & began drinking & doing dope again, & frequenting bars & bawdy houses. he saw me & offered me money to drive him around from bar to bar as he was too drunk to drive mosta the time. I flat-out refused & asked him about his faith. He said, "Oh, that was phony as the Easter bunny, but it served a purpose for awhile." Nothing I could say would change his mind. That was the last time I saw him alive, as he died from an OD of smack 2 months later. At least he didn't leave his family destitute.
Now, as I said, I'd heard him preach & he was very good. far as I know, all those he'd led to Christ stayed with Christ & are faithful Christians still. (After he left it, his church soon dissolved.)
I'd say the following Scriptures apply to him: Hebrews 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
But JESUS will always do HIS part, & not abandon any of His "sheep". But it seems one can abandon Him. (I don't intend to see how true this is, as I KNOW His power & love first-hand!)
Then, he ceased to conduct services any more, passing the duty to others, & began drinking & doing dope again, & frequenting bars & bawdy houses. he saw me & offered me money to drive him around from bar to bar as he was too drunk to drive mosta the time. I flat-out refused & asked him about his faith. He said, "Oh, that was phony as the Easter bunny, but it served a purpose for awhile." Nothing I could say would change his mind. That was the last time I saw him alive, as he died from an OD of smack 2 months later. At least he didn't leave his family destitute.
Now, as I said, I'd heard him preach & he was very good. far as I know, all those he'd led to Christ stayed with Christ & are faithful Christians still. (After he left it, his church soon dissolved.)
I'd say the following Scriptures apply to him: Hebrews 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
But JESUS will always do HIS part, & not abandon any of His "sheep". But it seems one can abandon Him. (I don't intend to see how true this is, as I KNOW His power & love first-hand!)
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
We had a local pastor who preached holiness for some time every Sunday. The rest of the time he was out robbing banks. Got killed on his last bank job. Some of the worst are in the pulpits today and only those who are well studied can discern their evil.
Yes, I referenced Grasping God's Word.
Words have meaning and that meaning is different from commentary about concepts.
It is not what a passage means to you but what the text means.
This is not an excuse for false claims and insult.
You seem to suggest that anyone who disagrees with you on a doctrine does not understand your view and disagrees with all biblical doctrine. If so, this is a very foolish position.
What I am saying is that people can disagree without devolving into anti-Christ-like behavior. The false claims, insult and accusations are neither necessary or warranted.
We are commanded to interact in love, not hostility. We are commanded to uplift - not tear down.
We are commanded to have the mind of Christ, not worldy arrogance.
Wow.
This is an extreme but very often people's actions do not reflect their "beliefs".
Matthew 7:21-23 comes to mind.
Do not project what you do, onto me. My claims are reacting to your posts. There are no insults except from your keyboard.
what is not necessary is for you to post toward me. I have asked you at least a dozen times to stop.
But David, a prophet, as Jesus said he was, said, when his first child by Bathsheba died, "Some day I will go to him".
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
God brought David to repent. Many do not.
I am not sure why you believe my words to you were insults.
I am suggesting resources that I believe may help you as they have helped me.
I think you may have forgotten who started this conversation (you quoted me, not the other way around). And that is fine.
What I suggest is that you pray about what you post prior to posting.
There is never an excuse for Christians to persecute other Christians. There us never an excuse for lies, insults, arrogance, hatred, etc. between Christians.
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