why I am not a Calvinist

[Iconoclast]

"JonC,

Yes, I referenced Grasping God's Word.

Words have meaning and that meaning is different from commentary about concepts.

It is not what a passage means to you but what the text means.

I never said that. Where did I say this is what it means to me? I said the biblical use is what is important.

This is not an excuse for false claims and insult.

None were given.This itself is a false accusation.

You seem to suggest

This is the problem...I do not care for what you think, I seem to suggest. I will say what I want to say. I will say it directly, I do not need you to say what you think I seem to suggest. no thanks

that anyone who disagrees with you on a doctrine does not understand your view and disagrees with all biblical doctrine. If so, this is a very foolish position.

What I am saying is that people can disagree without devolving into anti-Christ-like behavior. The false claims, insult and accusations are neither necessary or warranted.

Believe it or not, I can live without you calling me biblically illiterate of foolish, insulting ,or anything else.

We are commanded to interact in love, not hostility. We are commanded to uplift - not tear down.
We are commanded to have the mind of Christ, not worldy arrogance.

Great glad you know that. Now try and practice that with those you post to. Once again, I would request you avoid interacting with me. Thanks in advance.

 

[robycop3]

We had a local pastor who preached holiness for some time every Sunday. The rest of the time he was out robbing banks. Got killed on his last bank job. Some of the worst are in the pulpits today and only those who are well studied can discern their evil.

But, how good a preacher was he? Did he stick strictly to Scripture? Did he actually lead people to Jesus? Or was he merely an entertaining demagogue?

The man I wrote of above was a GENUINE PREACHER OF THE GOSPEL. I never heard one unbiblical thing in his preaching, & never heard anyone else who'd listened to him more often than I mention any false preaching, either.

 

[Iconoclast]

I am not sure why you believe my words to you were insults.

I am suggesting resources that I believe may help you as they have helped me.

I think you may have forgotten who started this conversation (you quoted me, not the other way around). And that is fine.

What I suggest is that you pray about what you post prior to posting.

There is never an excuse for Christians to persecute other Christians. There us never an excuse for lies, insults, arrogance, hatred, etc. between Christians.

Good , so stop posting that way to me, Stop posting to me at all. I will get along just fine.

 

[robycop3]

As for some of the "faith" discussions above - Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

That should end all argument about what BIBLICAL faith is.

 

[1689Dave]

But, how good a preacher was he? Did he stick strictly to Scripture? Did he actually lead people to Jesus? Or was he merely an entertaining demagogue?

The man I wrote of above was a GENUINE PREACHER OF THE GOSPEL. I never heard one unbiblical thing in his preaching, & never heard anyone else who'd listened to him more often than I mention any false preaching, either.

I didn't hear him but Church members who seemed genuine spoke of the situation. I did a search trying to find more into to share. But in the process I found several bank robbing pastors who had buffaloes their congregations.

 

[JonC]

I didn't hear him but Church members who seemed genuine spoke of the situation. I did a search trying to find more into to share. But in the process I found several bank robbing pastors who had buffaloes their congregations.

There are Christians and there are "Christians". It is one thing to know about God, but quite another to know Him.

 

[JonC]

Good , so stop posting that way to me, Stop posting to me at all. I will get along just fine.

This is not your personal echo chamber. You cannot tell members not to respond to your posts.

Judging from your replies it is questionable just how "fine" you are getting along.

The world will judge us by our actions - not by our doctrine. I encourage you to glorify God in your conduct on this forum.

Romans 12:1-2
Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is —his good, pleasing and perfect will.

 

[37818]

Did it say it's not possible for men to understand the gospel? Or did it rather say, "if our gospel be hid it is hid to them that are lost". What do many of the lost choose to walk in? Pride or the thought of being independent from God. Such would be willfully being ignorant which keeps them away from truth. Doesn't mean they have to be but they choose to be.

Explain how one can understand what is hidden from them? ". . . if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: . . ." Show me anyone who is not a Christian who actually understands the gospel message is true?

 

[37818]

As for some of the "faith" discussions above - Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

That should end all argument about what BIBLICAL faith is.

Faith is subtance of hope. In the case of what is not yet seen, faith is an evidence. Most things which people believe, they have not seen the evidence of it. Believing the witness of others.

 

[37818]

It is defined as grace that is not ultimately resisted by the elect. It is an inner working that is effectual.

Again, we do not agree on the meaning of Titus 2:11. So while I find your argument of "irresistable grace" tenable, I am not in agreement with that view for reasons stated.

 

[37818]

Did he actually lead people to Jesus?

The gospel itself works, ". . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . ." -- Romans 1:16.

 

[Rockson]

Explain how one can understand what is hidden from them? ". . . if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: . . ." Show me anyone who is not a Christian who actually understands the gospel message is true?

Not sure really how you can ask that? Haven't you seen many through the years which didn't deny it was true but said they don't want to give up their ungodly ways? Some have said perhaps when they get old they'll turn to God. I see nothing in cases like that which suggests they don't believe it's true.

 

[37818]

Haven't you seen many through the years which didn't deny it was true but said they don't want to give up their ungodly ways?

The genuine gospel was in fact hid to them. Else ". . .
if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. . . ." -- 2 Corinthians 4:3-4, would not be true.

 

[JonC]

The genuine gospel was in fact hid to them. Else ". . .
if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. . . ." -- 2 Corinthians 4:3-4, would not be true.

Unfortunately (tragically) the genuine gospel alludes people who may accept sound doctrine (Mt 7). Many believe they will be saved by their works and what they know about Christ, but will hear those horrible words "I never knew you".

Our faith (our true faith) is on display in how we treat each other.

 

[Rockson]

The genuine gospel was in fact hid to them. Else ". . .
if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. . . ." -- 2 Corinthians 4:3-4, would not be true.

Well I'd challenge your statement "would not be true". If they understand what's being offered to them and what's expected of them you can't say in an absolute sense the gospel was hidden from them. If you're in a dark room you might understand there's light on the other side. One can yield however to seducing thoughts which blinds you to the significance of your wrong actions.

I could say it even in regard to one engaged in theological discussions. You might be Calvinistic but I could say Calvinsitic teachers have blinded you as to the truth of scripture. Such doesn't mean though you don't have the capacity to make a stand and consider other things. Generally the human race has yielded to seduction which appeals to their flesh but such doesn't mean they can't assess information and decide otherwise.

So I'd say my point still stands. People can see as you call it the genuine gospel and still understand it but also reject it. As I mentioned it happens all the time with people that say when I get older I'll get saved. There's nothing there which says they didn't understand the gospel.

 

[Rockson]

Unfortunately (tragically) the genuine gospel alludes people who may accept sound doctrine (Mt 7). Many believe they will be saved by their works and what they know about Christ, but will hear those horrible words "I never knew you".

Our faith (our true faith) is on display in how we treat each other.

Well Jon I'm not sure how they could have sound doctrine and believe they're saved by works. and at least what the other poster and I were talking about was can someone actually understand the gospel....yes that it's not by works, and they even understand grace but still reject it. I'd suggest they can as I've seen it through the years. I'm sure maybe you have as well.

 

[JonC]

Well Jon I'm not sure how they could have sound doctrine and believe they're saved by works. and at least what the other poster and I were talking about was can someone actually understand the gospel....yes that it's not by works, and they even understand grace but still reject it. I'd suggest they can as I've seen it through the years. I'm sure maybe you have as well.

I do not understand how they could either but I have seen it more times thsn I care to remember. It goes back to knowing about God vs. knowing God, I suppose.

I knew a couple of preachers who were used by God yet were lost for much of their time in the ministry. They preached the gospel and belueved it (cognitively), but did not know Christ.

 

[robycop3]

I didn't hear him but Church members who seemed genuine spoke of the situation. I did a search trying to find more into to share. But in the process I found several bank robbing pastors who had buffaloes their congregations.

So, ya didn't hear him preach? Well, we don't know how genuine his ministry was, do we? But I remember that Hebrews 6:4-6 isn't included in Scripture just to fill space. I have no reason not to believe the man I mentioned wasn't saved at all, but still preached successfully before giving in to the temptations of hookers, booze, & dope again, 3 things he useta do before his ministry & after.

The founder of the snake-handlers' cult, George W. Hensley, was a drunk who married 4 times, & died in 1955 as the result of a rattlesnake bite he received while conducting one of his cultic services. Now, I seriously doubt he was ever saved, but his falsehood was apparent from the gitgo.

 

[1689Dave]

So, ya didn't hear him preach? Well, we don't know how genuine his ministry was, do we? But I remember that Hebrews 6:4-6 isn't included in Scripture just to fill space. I have no reason not to believe the man I mentioned wasn't saved at all, but still preached successfully before giving in to the temptations of hookers, booze, & dope again, 3 things he useta do before his ministry & after.

The founder of the snake-handlers' cult, George W. Hensley, was a drunk who married 4 times, & died in 1955 as the result of a rattlesnake bite he received while conducting one of his cultic services. Now, I seriously doubt he was ever saved, but his falsehood was apparent from the gitgo.

3/4 of the seeds in the soils wash out in the parable of the sower. Only 1/4 remain planted in "good soil". I've seen way too much to trust any pastor anytime based on their profession.

 

[Revmitchell]

Why so antagonistic?

You need to remember there was an entire thread started excusing that kind posting and blaming the recipients as feeling guilty as to why they were offended by it. Now in response to your questioning that antagonism they are guilty of the:

"tu quoque"
You avoided having to engage with criticism by turning it back on the accuser - you answered criticism with criticism.
Pronounced too-kwo-kwee. Literally translating as 'you too' this fallacy is also known as the appeal to hypocrisy. It is commonly employed as an effective red herring because it takes the heat off someone having to defend their argument, and instead shifts the focus back on to the person making the criticism.

Your logical fallacy is tu quoque